Nintendo know something MS and Sony do not know?

[patsu]

the set-top box from my adsl provider brings HD, hdmi connection, TV, VoD, Internet, multimedia extender (MIMO), VoIP and i think we'll soon have videogames (!) and PVR (integrated HDD) within the same box.

console-makers won't be able to compete service-wise with the access provider, as they are not at the same level network-wise.

Interesting. Do you have to pay a higher ADSL subscription fee every month for access to the value added services and content ? On top of that, do you need to pay per "view" ? What is the DRM restrictions for the bought content ? Sony may adopt a different model, just like Apple.

 

[Magnum PI]

Interesting. Do you have to pay a higher ADSL subscription fee every month for access to the value added services and content ? On top of that, do you need to pay per "view" ? What is the DRM restrictions for the bought content ? Sony may adopt a different model, just like Apple.

i pay 30 € for the phone line + ADSL 2+ at the highest speed that my line can attain + about 100 tv channels + VoIP (free calls to fixed national lines and fixed lines of more than ten countries)

some optional channels and package of channels are available too.

for the VoD i pay to have the movie at my disposal for 4 or 24 hours, i can do anything i would do with a dvd, the price is according to the length of the rent and the age of the content, from 1.99 € to 3.99 €

i do not know about DRM restriction, the content is streamed to the set-top-box which is plugged on my tv using the scart interface, didn't try to record it.

i don't see how sony could do VoD like this, except if they have partnerships with ISPs.

 

[patsu]

Sorry... I lost you along the way. What is "4 ou 24 hours" ?
The package seems very compelling. Is the movie selection large and current ?

Other than ISP, VoD can also be done in partnership with a streaming infrastructure provider like advection.net (If I remember their name correctly).

EDIT: Ok, I see that you have corrected the typo to "4 or 24 hours". I'm still unsure what it means exactly. Is there extra charge for 4 hour or 24 hour ?

 

[Magnum PI]

Sorry... I lost you along the way. What is "4 ou 24 hours" ?

"ou" is the french word for "or"

The package seems very compelling. Is the movie selection large and current ?

for now more than 600 movies, some pretty recent, available around the same time as they're released on DVD. the service is pretty recent, it was launched december of 2005

Other than ISP, VoD can also be done in partnership with a streaming infrastructure provider like advection.net (If I remember their name correctly).

i think if any entity is provide such a VoD thing, it implies a guaranteed service level from the source to the client.

i think that at least the ISP must be cooperating with the VoD provider. what will do sony if ISPs don't cooperate with it for VoD and prefer to provide VoD using their set-top-box and other partners ?

without that of course you can do a VoD service where you a download the entire movie to HD for later viewing, with DRM.

if your are interested in the company: http://www.iliad.fr/en/

 

[TheChefO]

think about us ageing gamers, we don't have the same reflex as before and not as much time to play..


in metroid prime i didn't beat the last boss, in MP2 i stopped with the boss where you morph into the ball .. and worse the last savepoint is far from these bosses.

PoP there is there is the elevator stage where we are attacked.. i finished stopped playing this game too.

when its too difficult it ends in frustration, I won't replay a level dozens of times, I want to relax from my work when I play, not stress myself too much..

i have to be able to play for short sessions, and these can be interrupted, this mean i don't want 30 minutes b/w two savepoints

gamers are ageing, when doing so they are becoming a different audience with differents needs, please don't forget us.

Agreed - another thing to add to this list of requests:
- Save Summary -
The time between gaming can also vary, sometimes I'll go a week between sessions where I don't have the time to game or switch games in between. By the time I get back to the original game I'm lost and don't know what I'm supposed to do. A summary as they do on popular weekly tv shows would be great.

 

[mckmas8808]

"without that of course you can do a VoD service where you a download the entire movie to HD for later viewing, with DRM.

if your are interested in the company: http://www.iliad.fr/en/

So do you see more people downloading 25 to 50 GB movies than actually buying a disc?

 

[Magnum PI]

So do you see more people downloading 25 to 50 GB movies than actually buying a disc?

i don't think downloading 20 GB to 50 GB si really an attractive option.

somebody would call it VoD but it isn't, it's just that you download a DRM file for a given price. a commercial download service.

i think VoD has to be as useable as your DVD player: you choose the movie on your set-top box, and you can watch it immediately. you can pause, you can rewind etc... but it is streamed to you on your demand, it's not stored on the set-top box. if you paid for 4 hours, you have 4 hours from when you began to watch it to when it can't be streamed to you.

it's the service my ISP offers.

i guess that with their HDD MS or Sony may sell a download service, but i doubt it would possible for them to make a VoD service which can work from any hi-speed internet access.

 

[mckmas8808]

i don't think downloading 20 GB to 50 GB si really an attractive option.

somebody would call it VoD but it isn't, it's just that you download a DRM file for a given price. a commercial download service.

i think VoD has to be as useable as your DVD player: you choose the movie on your set-top box, and you can watch it immediately. you can pause, you can rewind etc... but it is streamed to you on your demand, it's not stored on the set-top box. if you paid for 4 hours, you have 4 hours from when you began to watch it to when it can't be streamed to you.

it's the service my ISP offers.

i guess that with their HDD MS or Sony may sell a download service, but i doubt it would possible for them to make a VoD service which can work from any hi-speed internet access.

That doesn't sound bad at all. But I can't see something like that killing off high def media disc. Do you?

 

[TheChefO]

So do you see more people downloading 25 to 50 GB movies than actually buying a disc?

Not anytime soon in my neck of the woods. Standard "broadband" here is 1-2mb/sec. Needless to say, patience is a virtue, but nobody I know is that patient.

 

[Inane_Dork]

Not anytime soon in my neck of the woods. Standard "broadband" here is 1-2mb/sec. Needless to say, patience is a virtue, but nobody I know is that patient.

Considering that HD movies need not be even half of 25 GB and the popularity of online purchasing/renting which presumes a few days (or more) between purchase and delivery, I think you overestimate the patience required. Not that I think mass market broadband delivery is upon us, of course. I'm just saying the odds aren't so heavily stacked against it.

 

[TheChefO]

Considering that HD movies need not be even half of 25 GB and the popularity of online purchasing/renting which presumes a few days (or more) between purchase and delivery, I think you overestimate the patience required. Not that I think mass market broadband delivery is upon us, of course. I'm just saying the odds aren't so heavily stacked against it.

The tech is coming - they're installing VIOS all over the area here but its coverage is still sporadic and the price is still premium (>$60/mo).

When coverage is more widespread and costs come down to around $30/mo, this seriously broadband format should enable these services realisticly but we're still a few years away.

 

[Magnum PI]

That doesn't sound bad at all. But I can't see something like that killing off high def media disc. Do you?

Of course I don't.

I like to have my DVDs. Even given the possibility of a perpetual licence I'd rather buy a DVD, better own the thing rather than a only a viewing right.

I think it isn't meant to replace media discs

More than competing with DVD sales, it is competing with the traditionnal rental bizness. If a movie is in the VoD catalog and isn't overpriced I don't see how I would prefer to rent it in DVD. Except if I want to rip it.

 

[Magnum PI]

Considering that HD movies need not be even half of 25 GB

9 GB isn't too much to store a SD movie, I would think 12.5 GB to be rather problematic for HD movie if you want adequate quality.

 

[Powderkeg]

9 GB isn't too much to store a SD movie, I would think 12.5 GB to be rather problematic for HD movie if you want adequate quality.

Rough estimates:

720p = 48mb per minute
1080p = 60MB per minute

So, a typical hour and a half film would only be about 4.4GB at 720p and 5.5GB at 1080p based on MS's VC-1 codec. If you want you can go to MS's web site and order a 1080p version of Terminator 2 on a single DVD-9 disk.

 

[mckmas8808]

Of course I don't.

I like to have my DVDs. Even given the possibility of a perpetual licence I'd rather buy a DVD, better own the thing rather than a only a viewing right.

I think it isn't meant to replace media discs

More than competing with DVD sales, it is competing with the traditionnal rental bizness. If a movie is in the VoD catalog and isn't overpriced I don't see how I would prefer to rent it in DVD. Except if I want to rip it.

Oh okay. Me and you are totally on the same page then. I completly agree with you on your VoD observation.

 

[Inane_Dork]

9 GB isn't too much to store a SD movie, I would think 12.5 GB to be rather problematic for HD movie if you want adequate quality.

10 Mbps is a pretty decent bitrate for MPEG4 or VC1 encoded HD video. That gets you about 9 GB for 2 hours. You can add the special features as separate downloads.

I'm sure there are people who disagree with my position about 10 Mbps being a decent bitrate, but eh. If most people can't tell or don't care about the difference between crappy MP3's and CD quality audio, 10 Mbps will likely be plenty. 720p could probably get away with 8 Mbps.

Remember, there's nothing stopping us from offering highly compressed HD at the beginning and then changing to more reasonably compressed HD later.

 

[-tkf-]

10 Mbps is a pretty decent bitrate for MPEG4 or VC1 encoded HD video. That gets you about 9 GB for 2 hours. You can add the special features as separate downloads.

I'm sure there are people who disagree with my position about 10 Mbps being a decent bitrate, but eh. If most people can't tell or don't care about the difference between crappy MP3's and CD quality audio, 10 Mbps will likely be plenty. 720p could probably get away with 8 Mbps.

Remember, there's nothing stopping us from offering highly compressed HD at the beginning and then changing to more reasonably compressed HD later.

10mbit at SD is ok, i would prefer (and HD-DVD seems to agree with me) that 15-18mbit average is the needed bitrate.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I'm sure there are people who disagree with my position about 10 Mbps being a decent bitrate, but eh. If most people can't tell or don't care about the difference between crappy MP3's and CD quality audio, 10 Mbps will likely be plenty. 720p could probably get away with 8 Mbps.

Ithink the visual compression artefacts on movies are far worse than the compression artefacts on low quality compressed audio. In most situations the audio compression artefacts aren't apparent, you have high detail audio, but it gets very bad in some situations. In low quality video compression, the whole thing is bad losing definiton and creating large areas of blocking, colour bleeding and smudging. At 4 times the resolution of DVD, I'd want at least 4x the bitrate to give the same compression, and I really want far better than that! DVD has serious problems at times. I don't see the point in going HiDef in resolution if you're going to stay LowDef in every other aspect. Uncompressed 7.1 audio and big blocky blobs in dark scenes? Doesn't really go, does it!

 

[assen]

At 4 times the resolution of DVD, I'd want at least 4x the bitrate to give the same compression

This is a wrong assumption. At 4 times the resolution of DVD there isn't 4 times the amount of information. You need the same number of DCT coefficients to represent the same patch of smooth color gradient, e.g. sky or out-of-focus background, even if it's gone from 8x8 pixels to 16x16 pixels. Even if the movie is shot in HD, you won't get the screen filled with a solid mess of Angelina Jolie's pores

 

[Kryton]

This is a wrong assumption. At 4 times the resolution of DVD there isn't 4 times the amount of information. You need the same number of DCT coefficients to represent the same patch of smooth color gradient, e.g. sky or out-of-focus background, even if it's gone from 8x8 pixels to 16x16 pixels. Even if the movie is shot in HD, you won't get the screen filled with a solid mess of Angelina Jolie's pores

Remember though, MPEG isn't just about the DCT in the reference i-frames, the p/b-frames are very important (this is the area where loads of optimisations have occured giving increased compression ratios at expense of compression time lately).