Nextbox: "XBOX Loop"

[Grall]

Rumors on Microsoft's next generation of console hardware were published today on Nordic Hardware, claiming that the development codename is "Xbox Loop" (sticking with the circle imagery from the 360 then, if true), and that it will be based on a custom ARM design with multiple cores and co-processors for game logic, graphics and physics.

Sort of a variation of Cell then, again if true, and a step away from the monolithic triple-core CPU of the current Xbox 360. The CPU was said to be in development with Microsoft themselves and two other companies, with no additional names given.

If true, Nvidia would be a likely candidate methinks, since they already have a strong focus on ARM, with a detailed roadmap. AMD sold off their mobile IP a year or two back, which in hindsight probably wasn't the smartest move ever... The other company might be ARM themselves; probably not Imagine Technologies, since if Nvidia is involved then they would want to deliver the graphics hardware as well. Of course, I'm just speculating based on speculations here...

The reason for the ARM CPU would be two-fold; cost, since current consoles are too expensive to compete with the increasingly popular mobile phones, and also so the console can run a version of the Windows 9/Windows Phone 9 kernels, creating a cohesive software ecosystem for Microsoft platforms that would simplify porting between different platforms.

Linky to the Swedish edition of Nordic hardware's article here: http://www.nordichardware.se/nyhete...q-baseras-pa-arm-processor-och-windows-9.html
English edition may be updated later, or you can feed it through Babelfish or something and maybe get a semi-readable translation...

 

[dobwal]

Rumors on Microsoft's next generation of console hardware were published today on Nordic Hardware, claiming that the development codename is "Xbox Loop" (sticking with the circle imagery from the 360 then, if true), and that it will be based on a custom ARM design with multiple cores and co-processors for game logic, graphics and physics.

Sort of a variation of Cell then, again if true, and a step away from the monolithic triple-core CPU of the current Xbox 360. The CPU was said to be in development with Microsoft themselves and two other companies, with no additional names given.

If true, Nvidia would be a likely candidate methinks, since they already have a strong focus on ARM, with a detailed roadmap. AMD sold off their mobile IP a year or two back, which in hindsight probably wasn't the smartest move ever... The other company might be ARM themselves; probably not Imagine Technologies, since if Nvidia is involved then they would want to deliver the graphics hardware as well. Of course, I'm just speculating based on speculations here...

The reason for the ARM CPU would be two-fold; cost, since current consoles are too expensive to compete with the increasingly popular mobile phones, and also so the console can run a version of the Windows 9/Windows Phone 9 kernels, creating a cohesive software ecosystem for Microsoft platforms that would simplify porting between different platforms.

Linky to the Swedish edition of Nordic hardware's article here: http://www.nordichardware.se/nyhete...q-baseras-pa-arm-processor-och-windows-9.html
English edition may be updated later, or you can feed it through Babelfish or something and maybe get a semi-readable translation...

Given MS's previous experience with Nvidia, I doubt MS will use their tech in their next console. Furthermore, while the rumor states that the CPU will be ARM based there is nothing there that points to the type GPU that will be used.

I personally doubt the GPU will be ARM based due to the belief that no one has shown the ability to compete with Nvidia or AMD when in comes to graphics in an environment where battery life isn't a consideration.

 

[AlNom]

What if the MS folks are using the ARM license to come up with a GPU that competes with whatever AMD comes up with? It's a long shot, but anyways, I'm not sure what the advantage would be from a business sense in terms of paying licensing fees were that the case. I'd put my money with AMD anyway.

 

[liolio]

Shamelessly quoting my-self

In regard to the late rumor about an ARM based new xbox my belief is that it doesn't makes much sense. We know Microsoft acquire an ARM license a while ago, that they are working to sell the 360 as a set-top box. For me what would make sense is for MS is include a second SoC in the system, an ARM based one. It would be there to ensure low power operations during your usual set-top box operations which the actual 360 is unlikely to provide. MS is clever once in a while so they may include a SoC that offers enough "gaming performances" to play the games that are release on winphone 7 now as well as the games that will run in one or two smart phone generations from now (they can afford a way higher consumption than a phone or a slate).

 

[TheChefO]

There are a few probable items in the list, but overall I think MS is trying to muddy the waters with false info.

Nvidia not likely

Multi cpu arch not likely

Arm processor to handle NONgaming aspects is a very real possibility or completely arm based with many cores could work. But theyve seen the results of multiple archs in game dev. It adds tme/cost to game dev and should be avoided if possible.

Another consideration is BC .. not convinced arm could run xb360 soft and if libs are renderd useless, they will lose customers and open door to comp.

Name loop could work though.

 

[Johnny_Physics]

Something like this:

"The next generation Microsoft console is said to use the development name "Loop" and is based on an ARM-processer with multiple cores dedicated to graphics, physics, AI, sound and networking. The latest rumors say that the console would be smaller than the X360 and is built around Windows 9.

Pretty recentely we could hear rumours about Microsofts next generation Xbox-console and that a launch was planned for 2013. Now there's new information that says Microsoft is working on a tailor-made platform for the console that goes under the development moniker of "Loop".

Microsoft is said to abandon the PowerPC-architechture in favor of the strong growth of the ARM-architecture in a powerful CPU with dedicated assisting processors for various tasks. Microsoft is said to work on a specially developed ARM-processor in conjunction with two partners, and outside of the ARM CPUs it will integrate processors for dedicated graphics, physics, AI, sound, networking, cryptography and different sensors. It's a constellation that sounds a lot like the CPUs we see in smartphones and tablets today, but with some additions. How Microsoft will deal with the different parts of the CPU, if they hire AMD for graphics again, is still unclear.

Xbox Loop will be a significantly more powerful solution than the current Xbox 360 but at the same time Microsoft seems to be aware that during 2013 you couldn't sell super-consoles at high prices. The mobile market will probably see to that. Instead, it is said that they are putting their effort into making a console that isn't just smaller than the Xbox 360, but cheaper as well."


edit: translated from the article in the OP.

 

[AlNom]

Shamelessly quoting my-self

Yeah, it's an interesting thought, though I'm not sure what the obstacles would be for processing and programming in such an environment. :s

Anyways, supposing that idea (no idea, nor am I saying it's what they will be doing), I'd also be thinking about how MS would be able to expand upon Kinect capabilities whilst not making this the next gen per se. It just has to be enough. So basically, this ends up being their low cost solution for "next gen" that's really just an enhanced 360, but that's all it needs to be to handle next gen Kinect processing, expanded Live capabilities, and set top box features. Remove the optical drive, and this will be easily smaller than 360 Slim.

For the actual next-gen box, they can throw in the ARM CPU that they design (it's an architecture license, not one using an existing chip) if they want, and they seem to be moving towards making cross-platform that much easier with Win8+, and build something that's actually beefy without chassis constraints on heat dissipation. I just don't see them making a true next gen within a box that's smaller than 360 slim, so I wonder if MS Nerd is confusing their plans to some extent. *shrug*

Gah... what about the Xbox codename: "Ten" project?


28nm is assured in 2013+, but it's not going to be magical if they have to make a chip that's on par for size as the current 360 SoP just to fit in a smaller chassis. You certainly won't get an order of magnitude increase in processing/transistors; that is, 90nm -> 28nm represents an ideal theoretical decrease to 1/10 transistor size, and a 28nm design that's smaller than the original chips @ 90nm isn't going to be >10x # of trannies in the ideal world. Well, you know what I mean.

 

[Johnny_Physics]

About the news-post, based on Windows 9 and released in 2013? Really? That's a fast turn-around for a new MS OS.

 

[fehu]

i'm not arguing about the possibility of this rumor, but win7 and win8 kernel were the first things ready, and by that time a lot of libraries will be ported to arm, so technically an hybrid win8/9 is possible

A question for Arun Alstrong and all the user that start with an A
an arm v8 is projected to be good enought to compete with an ideal nextcpu or even with the actual cpu?

 

[liolio]

Yeah, it's an interesting thought, though I'm not sure what the obstacles would be for processing and programming in such an environment. :s

I don't get what you mean, as I see it nobody would program for both the ARM and the standard 360 hardware at the same time. I guess I'm not getting what you meant.

Anyways, supposing that idea (no idea, nor am I saying it's what they will be doing), I'd also be thinking about how MS would be able to expand upon Kinect capabilities whilst not making this the next gen per se. It just has to be enough. So basically, this ends up being their low cost solution for "next gen" that's really just an enhanced 360, but that's all it needs to be to handle next gen Kinect processing, expanded Live capabilities, and set top box features. Remove the optical drive, and this will be easily smaller than 360 Slim.

Exactly my thoughts, Kinect is said to take a fraction of the CPU and GPU power of the 360, a properly design ARM SOC should be up to the tasks. For the form factor removing the DVD drive would indeed help a lot. I also wonder about the rumor pushed by Charlie a while ago, you know the one about the next xbox SOC produce by IBM (supposedly). Charlie were claiming that MS were expecting the first chips by Q1 2012. I wonder if he actually heard something but not enough, actually I wonder if IBM could be working on a 32nm rendition of the 360.

For the actual next-gen box, they can throw in the ARM CPU that they design (it's an architecture license, not one using an existing chip) if they want, and they seem to be moving towards making cross-platform that much easier with Win8+, and build something that's actually beefy without chassis constraints on heat dissipation. I just don't see them making a true next gen within a box that's smaller than 360 slim, so I wonder if MS Nerd is confusing their plans to some extent. *shrug*

I agree to that, actually I grew cautious about the ARM environment enthusiasm as it's getting a bit silly, any low performance CPU coming along with a 20GFLOPS GPU is said to the messiah, etc.
I remember reading some IBM presentation about their last embedded products and they were producing benchmarks and were beating ARM offering as far as CPU perfs are concerned. OK it's their marketing paper, etc but clearly people should understand that there is nothing magic to ARM. To give meat to this while considering the rumors at hand a lot of people are willing to call a beast or powerful any dual or even quad cores running @1GHz with few cache, crippled by sluggish memory interface with a few fixe function units integrating a gpu running ~200MHz. Once we speak of ARM based chip lot of irrational behaviors are to be expected or at least expectations are instantly set to high.

28nm is assured in 2013+, but it's not going to be magical if they have to make a chip that's on par for size as the current 360 SoP just to fit in a smaller chassis. You certainly won't get an order of magnitude increase in processing/transistors; that is, 90nm -> 28nm represents an ideal theoretical decrease to 1/10 transistor size, and a 28nm design that's smaller than the original chips @ 90nm isn't going to be >10x # of trannies in the ideal world. Well, you know what I mean.

I agree to that too, I still believe that MS may push a SoC for its "real" next gen too. As fall 2014 is getting really likely for their next box I would put my bet on IBM versus ARM/in house development, IBM may also be able to provide EDRAM enable 32nm process which may help to further raise the transistor density (on top of some other advantages).

 

[Grall]

Given MS's previous experience with Nvidia, I doubt MS will use their tech in their next console.

That was a very long time ago, and successful companies like Microsoft don't hold illogical grudges. Nvidia has a very strong ARM strategy right now, and it's going to become stronger with time.

I personally doubt the GPU will be ARM based due to the belief that no one has shown the ability to compete with Nvidia or AMD when in comes to graphics in an environment where battery life isn't a consideration.

...Which is why I'm thinking Nvidia is the likeliest partner in this venture, because they're the only one right now who BOTH can offer very strong 3D acceleration AND has a solid ARM development project going.

 

[Cyan]

That was a very long time ago, and successful companies like Microsoft don't hold illogical grudges. Nvidia has a very strong ARM strategy right now, and it's going to become stronger with time.


...Which is why I'm thinking Nvidia is the likeliest partner in this venture, because they're the only one right now who BOTH can offer very strong 3D acceleration AND has a solid ARM development project going.

I love ATi, I hope they stick to them, especially knowing they can create a great CPU/amazing GPU on a single chip. Next generation will be really interesting.

 

[kagemaru]

I really hope they don't go with ARM. I have concerns about how well an ARM based console would perform compared to the competition. (though I realize this would be hard to judge seeing how we don't know what the competition is really up to.)

Gah... what about the Xbox codename: "Ten" project?

I came here to post the same thing Something tells me this "Ten" project is more 360 related, maybe a 360 based TV or something?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

...that it will be based on a custom ARM design with multiple cores and co-processors for game logic, graphics and physics.

This has been pointed out as being ludicrous and so potentially the ramblings of a person who doesn't understand what they are talking about. Custom processors/cores for sound and AI and physics is a nonsense in this day and age. There'll be a multicore CPU and a GPU, and the workloads will be shared between them. Dedicating cores to small tasks is a stupid waste of resources when they sit idle or aren't potent enough for a particular design; hence why we've moved away from dedicated shaders in GPUs to unified shaders where devs can choose what to use where. If anything the future is one unified processor architecture driving everything, so a step towards multiple discrete components would be a giant leap backwards.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I bet it'll have RAM and an HDMI port.

 

[BoardBonobo]

The original rumour made it sound like the next generation Xbox is going to be the PS Vita!

 

[temesgen]

I bet it'll have RAM and an HDMI port.

what are you basing this on?






:smile:

 

[dobwal]

That was a very long time ago, and successful companies like Microsoft don't hold illogical grudges. Nvidia has a very strong ARM strategy right now, and it's going to become stronger with time.

There is nothing illogical about refusing to do business with a company where a prior relationship was severed due to pricing conflict. And while Tegra might help Nvidia grow in the mobile market, you don't see them trying to replace their desktop based GPUs with their ARM based GPUs anywhere along their offerings where GPU is of upmost importance.

Which is why I'm thinking Nvidia is the likeliest partner in this venture, because they're the only one right now who BOTH can offer very strong 3D acceleration AND has a solid ARM development project going.

Nvidia is the only one thats doing it because Nvidia is the only GPU manufacturer to enter the market with a CPU/GPU ARM offering. Everyone else concentrates on producing a ARM based CPU and simply licenses GPU ARM based tech from companies like imagination.

If what you are saying is so true and makes so much sense, then why doesn't Vita include Nvidia based tech especially since Nvidia and Sony already have a relationship due to the PS3. Yet Sony licensed it GPU tech from Imagination instead using Tegra 3.

 

[Dominik D]

Windows 9 in the rumor is completely, absolutely ridiculous in my opinion. Windows team is hard at work on Windows 8. At this point there's definitely some high level planning as to what will be included in Windows 9 (and beyond) but system itself is at least 3 years away, which means no device built with Win9 in mind till summer 2014 (unless that's Xbox 3 target timeframe). What makes it additionally unbelievable is that current Xbox OS is based on the heavily modified Windows 2000 code AFAIR. There's a lot of stuff stripped (huge portions of MM related to paging for example) and a lot of stuff added (cryptography as part of the I/O stack to name one) and componentization of Win8/9 to enable feature removal of this magnitude + backporting necessary changes would be a huge task.

The only reason this would make sense is if Microsoft was moving towards one core platform (The Windows) developed by the core Windows team with potentially differentiated shells depending on the target platform and unified application platform on top of it (developed by the E&D). This would make some sense with Win8 development for ARM and if we take into account that Entertainment & Devices has a lot of experience with building application platform and content delivery system where Windows team has some amazing failures under their belt (GfWL being one). But then again: 2014 or even 2015 would be the earlies target date for Xbox 3 IMO.

As for hardware: back-compat is very important in the early days of the console lifecycle and moving from PPC to ARM seems like a big no-no. But it still makes more sense IMO than having more chips in the machine than actually needed. Microsoft had some problems with temperature design of the hardware so going for a low-power (low heat!) solution would make sense. But that seems to me like the only reason Xbox 3 would go ARM (aside from the HW platform unification of course, which I personally think would be difficult to achieve for MS).

 

[bkilian]

This has been pointed out as being ludicrous and so potentially the ramblings of a person who doesn't understand what they are talking about. Custom processors/cores for sound and AI and physics is a nonsense in this day and age. There'll be a multicore CPU and a GPU, and the workloads will be shared between them. Dedicating cores to small tasks is a stupid waste of resources when they sit idle or aren't potent enough for a particular design; hence why we've moved away from dedicated shaders in GPUs to unified shaders where devs can choose what to use where. If anything the future is one unified processor architecture driving everything, so a step towards multiple discrete components would be a giant leap backwards.

That's not always true. A dedicated DSP for audio can provide better performance for a lower cost than dedicating general purpose CPU cycles to it. In general you are correct, but for things that every game will use, like audio, or graphics, there is value in dedicated silicon (like a DSP or a GPU)