News and Rumours: PS4

AMD's APU roadmap as they implement their HSA initiatives looks an awful lot like a better implementation of the paradigm Cell was based on to me. I don't understand why people who were enthusiastic about Cell would be unimpressed by the direction AMD will be evolving their APU concept over the next 2 years.

They have a fairly interesting future roadmap but I am more interested in the kit you can get today. I'm, currently, looking at Xilinix, Freescale, and Tilera hardware but my next project is based on something a whole lot smaller.

Moons ago I built a Beowulf cluster from 486DX100's (IBM's blue lightening!) which was quite a beast at the time! Now I want to build myself a cluster using Raspberry Pi's. That's why I'm liking the route that ARM are taking more than AMD.
 
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Hi,
You really think that SONY is gonna dump all their works in the CELL and RSX and collaborate with AMD

Yes. Yes I do :D

I've no idea where AMD will take their APUs, I haven't bothered with checking out any roadmaps or nuttin because APUs are permanently relegated towards the lower end of the market so hence uninteresting to me (the antithesis of Cell), and also, AMD has disappointed repeatedly on CPU performance for years now and is bleeding money like crazy, so who knows if they'll even be around to make good on those plans.

How would you feel if one of these APUs (fully supporting HSA) ends up in the PS4? (and maybe even a different next gen console)
 
They have a fairly interesting future roadmap but I am more interested in the kit you can get today. I'm, currently, looking at Xilinix, Freescale, and Tilera hardware but my next project is based on something a whole lot smaller.

Moons ago I built a Beowulf cluster from 486DX100's (IBM's blue lightening!) which was quite a beast at the time! Now I want to build myself a cluster using Raspberry Pi's. That's why I'm liking the route that ARM are taking more than AMD.

I don't follow. You said you liked Cell because it had an accessible parallel architecture. HSA is an effort to create a more accessible parallel architecture and ARM have nothing comparable to the stream processors AMD are putting on their APUs now, never mind what's coming in 2013 and 2014. I'm beginning to think you like are attracted to unique architectures for the sake of their uniqueness, not because they have any real advantages.
 
They should be able to. Microsoft excel at copying good ideas from other companies. there's nothing anyone else can do that MS couldn't implement and could be expected to do so if they go that route. Sony OTOH have terrible software and no proven track record of copying the best ideas invented by others, so I find it much harder to believe that Sony will offer a cohesive, easy, welcoming software platform from them.

Sony have themselves to thank for the mess they are in, on the other hand they have everything, and i really mean everything to win by cleaning up their mess. But sadly it's very unlikely :(

Microsoft have all the needed resources and experience to pull everything off, and a history of not doing it, they should have introduced Steam, they should have had the mobile player market, every TV should support windows media center, etc etc.

I'm surprised to see you post this. I would expect you to know better. DRM is the reason you have to deal with a custom file format for WMC recordings and it's also the reason that Sony embracing Matroska is a pipe dream. I'm unaware of a non-proprietary file format that supports the necessary DRM for content owners to allow for recording and sharing of recordings.

These files are not DRM protected, and i love pipedreams :)
 
These files are not DRM protected, and i love pipedreams :)

It doesn't really make sense, though, for them to use one file format for DRM-requiring content and a different one for DRM-free content. It makes more sense to use one that allows for both.
 
How would you feel if one of these APUs (fully supporting HSA) ends up in the PS4? (and maybe even a different next gen console)
I'd feel wary. A CPU with a built-in GPU will always be less capable than a device with discrete components. Also, while I don't exactly frown on PC components in consoles I already own a PC... A rather high-spec PC actually. Whatever hardware goes into next gen of consoles it better compare favorably with my current gear, or else what the hell's the point...?
 
I'd feel wary. A CPU with a built-in GPU will always be less capable than a device with discrete components. Also, while I don't exactly frown on PC components in consoles I already own a PC... A rather high-spec PC actually. Whatever hardware goes into next gen of consoles it better compare favorably with my current gear, or else what the hell's the point...?

Having an APU doesn't preclude having a discrete GPU also.
 
I don't follow. You said you liked Cell because it had an accessible parallel architecture. HSA is an effort to create a more accessible parallel architecture and ARM have nothing comparable to the stream processors AMD are putting on their APUs now, never mind what's coming in 2013 and 2014. I'm beginning to think you like are attracted to unique architectures for the sake of their uniqueness, not because they have any real advantages.

I think he was quite clear about the reasons he was more interested in CELL over any future GPGPU effort:

Originally Posted by BoardBonobo
From my perspective, AI programming\research, the accessible parallel architecture made it a perfect fit, doesn't matter how screwy it is. You get used to bending your head around exotic architectures, it's an occupational hazard.

So you can blame Turing for that one! I still have some Transputer boards knocking around somewhere and I was so tempted when Danny Hillis was selling off the Thinking Machines kit, if I'd had the space...

But I just like CELL for it's parallelism; as GPUs move towards CPU, the CELL was the only CPU moving towards GPU. It was a bold move in conservative market where old rope is exceedingly expensive.

There's no reason to insult the guy by trying to pin his interest preferences in chip architecture as some kind of weird emotional attachment to unique architectures.

If the concept of CELL and what CELL was trying to do was interesting to him, there's no reason to try to belittle him for not being interested in the converse paradigm. People have different interests... deal with it.:rolleyes:
 
I think he was quite clear about the reasons he was more interested in CELL over any future GPGPU effort:

There's no reason to insult the guy by trying to pin his interest preferences in chip architecture as some kind of weird emotional attachment to unique architectures.

If the concept of CELL and what CELL was trying to do was interesting to him, there's no reason to try to belittle him for not being interested in the converse paradigm. People have different interests... deal with it.:rolleyes:

He said that he liked Cell because it was an accessible parallel architecture and in your own quote you see the mention of how he liked that they were a CPU moving towards GPU. Then presented with another initiative to create an accessible parallel architecture that is not only moving towards GPU but is actively integrating GPU elements, it's not interesting. You don't see an inconsistency? It's not a converse paradigm. It's the exact same paradigm! Then I see mention of an interest in Xilinx, Freescale and Tilera hardware and building a compute cluster out of Raspberry Pi's and I see a way to resolve the inconsistency. I wasn't belittling his interest or enthusiasm for Cell or any other architecture. Just questioning the source of that interest given the inconsistencies I saw between the two positions.

If I didn't think he would have a worthwhile response, I wouldn't have bothered to engage him. In this, I think I am showing more respect for him than someone who thinks they need to jump to his defense when he's challenged.
 
I'd feel wary. A CPU with a built-in GPU will always be less capable than a device with discrete components.
Given the same silicon budget, the close integration of the CPU and GPU should provide more flexibility. That is, 500 mm^2 made of 100 mm^2 CPU and 400 mm^2 GPU should be better as a single, closely coordinated processor compared to two discrete processors separated by a slow bus (assuming clocks and everything else equal).
 
He said that he liked Cell because it was an accessible parallel architecture and in your own quote you see the mention of how he liked that they were a CPU moving towards GPU. Then presented with another initiative to create an accessible parallel architecture that is not only moving towards GPU but is actively integrating GPU elements, it's not interesting. You don't see an inconsistency? It's not a converse paradigm. It's the exact same paradigm! Then I see mention of an interest in Xilinx, Freescale and Tilera hardware and building a compute cluster out of Raspberry Pi's and I see a way to resolve the inconsistency. I wasn't belittling his interest or enthusiasm for Cell or any other architecture. Just questioning the source of that interest given the inconsistencies I saw between the two positions.

If I didn't think he would have a worthwhile response, I wouldn't have bothered to engage him. In this, I think I am showing more respect for him than someone who thinks they need to jump to his defense when he's challenged.

I can see your point about the GPU and CPU melting together and a comparison can be drawn to the Cell, but afaik the Cell was never meant to be a real GPU, rather an insane powerhouse that was meant to feed a GPU.

I have asked several times why a Cell can't be a part of a PS4, and i still don't understand it, except that the PPC is "weak", but on the other hand, a Cell in a PS4 would not need to hold hands with a weak GPU, it would make BC possible and it would be fairly easy to bolster it's power (imho). But of course, are they planning a APU based on AMD tech there wont be space for a Cell.
 
Cell can't be in PS4 because it's an isolated product with no code crossover needing rewrites of every peice of Sony software specifically for PS4, no roadmap to ensure Cell will actually be available, and a very expensive cost to make a new one. Unless you mean just putting Cell as is in PS4, which would be a cost/benefit consideration for Sony. you'd have to organise the memory system to be compatible, which may be difficult and/or costly.
 
I have asked several times why a Cell can't be a part of a PS4, and i still don't understand it, except that the PPC is "weak", but on the other hand, a Cell in a PS4 would not need to hold hands with a weak GPU, it would make BC possible and it would be fairly easy to bolster it's power (imho). But of course, are they planning a APU based on AMD tech there wont be space for a Cell.

I'm wondering what that (those?) DSP's are meant to be, that are rumored to be stacked on the package. SPEs, anyone?

No, didn't think so. :cry:
 
I don't follow. You said you liked Cell because it had an accessible parallel architecture. HSA is an effort to create a more accessible parallel architecture and ARM have nothing comparable to the stream processors AMD are putting on their APUs now, never mind what's coming in 2013 and 2014. I'm beginning to think you like are attracted to unique architectures for the sake of their uniqueness, not because they have any real advantages.

I'm not saying I don't like AMDs efforts. It's just not cohesive enough for me personally. You are putting two fundamentally different paradigms together effectively producing a SoC but not an orthogonal architecture. It's a lot more work to get going and if you build a network of such devices you are looking at a lot of redundancy.

CELL had the advantage of accessible parallelism wrapped up in a neat package. I like the ARM approach because they are easy to put together in heterogenous groupings (I may be swayed by a little patriotism as well :LOL:)

And I admit I am more interested in the fringe exotic architectures. But only because that is where all the exciting things happen. Intel and AMD have been too busy with each other to notice that a lot of powerful silicon has been creeping into server tech and beyond. None of it bound by decades old legacy support.

I remember when Motorola brought out the 68060 and Intel was on the 386 with the 486 round the corner. The '060 was a lovely harvard design, risc core, the works. And the 386 was a faster 286 with a dodgy FPU (and a proper MMU). That's kind of like the situation between Intel and AMD today. Meanwhile Acorn and others, including AMD, were working on interesting designs that did things differently. I liked that!
 
I have asked several times why a Cell can't be a part of a PS4, and i still don't understand it, except that the PPC is "weak", but on the other hand, a Cell in a PS4 would not need to hold hands with a weak GPU, it would make BC possible and it would be fairly easy to bolster it's power (imho). But of course, are they planning a APU based on AMD tech there wont be space for a Cell.

I believe ERP, among others, replied to this earlier. Why not quote him and specifically state what you don't understand or what you disagree with an experience console programmer about.
 
I'm not saying I don't like AMDs efforts. It's just not cohesive enough for me personally. You are putting two fundamentally different paradigms together effectively producing a SoC but not an orthogonal architecture. It's a lot more work to get going and if you build a network of such devices you are looking at a lot of redundancy.

CELL had the advantage of accessible parallelism wrapped up in a neat package.

And CELL didn't put together two fundamentally different paradigms when they included a 1xPPE with 7xSPEs? We are talking degrees but SPEs with LS (instead of cache) and relying strongly on SIMD is a big departure.

I like the ARM approach because they are easy to put together in heterogenous groupings (I may be swayed by a little patriotism as well :LOL:)

Yet ARM performance is the pits and just throwing, oh, say 32 of them on a chip without any concerted effort for inter-chip communication and smart memory access/sharing would be a disaster.

And I admit I am more interested in the fringe exotic architectures. But only because that is where all the exciting things happen.

Sadly exciting and good aren't synonyms of good design.

Intel and AMD have been too busy with each other to notice that a lot of powerful silicon has been creeping into server tech and beyond. None of it bound by decades old legacy support.

Like?

Intel's and AMD's offerings trend toward volume. Intel's Itanium series aside they aren't doing stuff like IBM where they are selling entire platforms with chips with insane TDP for tens of thousands of dollars. That isn't their business model--but neither are those crazy designs even relevant because the *cost* of such isn't relevant. Don't get me wrong there is really cool stuff out there; when you limit the discussion to chips and technology that is financially feasible for consoles and, more importantly, conducive to a 2 year development cycle for games, those neat technology pieces become far and few in between.

I remember when Motorola brought out the 68060 and Intel was on the 386 with the 486 round the corner. The '060 was a lovely harvard design, risc core, the works. And the 386 was a faster 286 with a dodgy FPU (and a proper MMU). That's kind of like the situation between Intel and AMD today. Meanwhile Acorn and others, including AMD, were working on interesting designs that did things differently. I liked that!

Ok, so Intel has an exotic serve chip in Itanium, their core business of x86 chips that stretch from servers (Xeon), high end enthusiast rigs all they way down to low end desktop (i3, i5, i7) with performance mobile counterparts, they have their Atom series which has dual core variants in all sort of nettops and netbooks and now even pushed down into the mobile sector with Medfield, etc. Intel has been actively working on their GPU technology (see Haswel) and has been expanding their SIMD performance (e.g. AVX). They have been progressing their interconnects with Quickpath and dabbling in stacked memory.

I read exotic as "we have no prayer of competing with Intel on their turf so we are going to try something completely different, throw it at the wall, and see if it sticks in a niche market."

And to be blunt, that is exactly where ARM has excelled. It isn't unlike the problem MS has had getting Windows into the mobile space: x86 as a modern architecture until recently couldn't compete in the mobile space. Its features and legacy support made it too big and it wasn't designed with the power constraints; strip the features and fit it into a power envelop that is acceptable and performance would be so poor it wouldn't matter if it was x86 compatible. This, along with cheap licensing, allowed ARM to have a niche market uncontested by Intel/AMD. Now that there is volume to be had in that sector and node progression has knocked down some barriers (plus the fact successive generations of mobile software have needed more power pushing performance needs more into territory Intel could comfortably address) and the foresight of Intel to use Atom as a baseline architecture with an eye toward the ultra mobile sector ... and things change. A lot.

The funny thing about ARM is seeing how much people SLAG Atom processors but Medfield, a single core with HT processor, is right up at the top of the pack against ARM. And people (not necessarily you, but some posters here) seriously talk about wanting a sea of these chips, as if Amdahl's law magically vaporized into thin air and ARM has some magic sauce of inter-core communication and memory management. I don't see how ARM in any way is addressing the needs of console makers making a progressive platform (until what time someone like Nvidia releases a high end performance variant of ARM).

Anyways, popcorn time. With Sony losing $5B it will be interesting to see what they do.
 
I read exotic as "we have no prayer of competing with Intel on their turf so we are going to try something completely different, throw it at the wall, and see if it sticks in a niche market."

And to be blunt, that is exactly where ARM has excelled.

Really?

For example every iPad, iPhone and most other modern smartphones ever made pack in ARM tech, that's niche to you?

In 2010, over 6.1 billion ARM-based chips were sold, with a 55% unit increase from 2009

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_Holdings#Sales_and_market_share

Windows 8 having an ARM version will open new markets for them.
 
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