New Tim Sweeny interview

jvd said:
Okay

(walks down to his sisters room , tells her to give him the cd with the demos on them. Puts them in the pc and watches them... comes back )

Nope still haven't seen a game on the ps2 that looks that good . Same with the face demo.
Wow...just....wow. :rolleyes: Well, you probably don't need to buy a new console...since you're obviously blind.

marconelly! said:
What is it about that ballroom scene that makes people think it looks good. It's technically very unimpressive compared to things I've seen in many PS2 games being rendered in realtime. Old guy face demo at least has lots of polygonal detail (but still doesn't look as good as the old guy in SH3, not to mention that old guy in SH3 actually stands in fully realized scenes with backgrounds and other characters with the same amount of detail as him, and effects that the old demo didn't have, like DOF or self shadowing)

Well, when you compare it to the incredible CG scene from FF8...it pales horribly in comparison. But...I guess if you give the demo an "E" for effort, then it makes up the difference. That and they were dancing and stuff. ;) I know, there's no rational way to explain it. So I'm gonna just use the backdoor and siddle my way on out of here. :LOL: PEACE.
 
I got it marconelly! watch. Hey jvd how about this comparison from real PS2 games to the tech demo

Look at the detail and lighting on Roy's face
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2004/reviews/925401_20041207_screen002.jpg

The old man from the tech demo
square_2_3.jpg


An old man from Silent Hill 3. More detail and in a real environment.
sh3_screen006.jpg


Namco girl. J Allard said that he never played this game on the PS2. And then said that we will now get the look on Namco girl on DOA4 for X360 :?
http://www.picsplace.to/5/0672/screen_girlface.jpg

Look at the detail of Rocky's face, gloves, and chest hair.
ea-sports-fight-night-round-2-20050222023311801.jpg


So I now think you can stop it with the "no PS2 game has past the tech demo thing now".
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OXYGEN VAPORIZER
 
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heh , the interaction and the movements in the face from the demo are much greater than those in the game .

Sorry but no . I've seen the old man from silent hill and the i wouldn't put him close
 
the ps2 was and is an excellent system, and I'm not sure it ever did need to be replaced. ps3 sounds like Sony's effort to stay competative. What if there was no xbox 360? could ps3 have been delayed and leased with 4.6 GHz cell cpus, possibly because of .45 nm eching?
 
jvd said:
heh , the interaction and the movements in the face from the demo are much greater than those in the game .

Sorry but no . I've seen the old man from silent hill and the i wouldn't put him close

Agreed, still shots don't tell the whole story. The SH old man looks good because of texturing/art direction not because it's complex in terms of facial animation.
 
I'm in a hurry so just quick stuff.
The KZ presentation is exactly 2 minutes long, don't try to sell it as 1 minute.
Axis is not big, they've had like 10 people working on this one.
Production is quite linear, you have to lock down as much as you can during script, storyboard, then animatic stage.
I know plenty of details but can't get into it for reasons already explained.
GI is hideously expensive. You can't compare it with HDR cause they're different things.
COD's animation is far worse, jerky and jumpy transitions.
SH old man has far less detail in geometry and textures, just better quality of art assets.
How can you make any assumptions about CG tech related stuff? Can I then start to say that going to the Mars shouldn't be any bigger problem than going to the Moon cause it seems like that to me?

Why Sony did an animation instead of development? The results clearly show that it was worth every cent. And they wouldn't have anything remotely comparable from the current devkits in such short time. BTW, Guerilla is working on the game.

Faf: I respect your opinion, but I honestly haven't seen anything as detailed as these KZ characters in a game before. They're between 0.5 and 1 million polygons... and if the hardware could push such detail, why do we see normal mapping in almost every nextgen console game showcased so far?
 
To achieve the zen of completeness, this thread needs Deadmeat.



:devilish:




I thought this topic was declared off-limits to the board.
 
SH old man has far less detail in geometry and textures, just better quality of art assets.

Does it really matter which has more geometry than the other. Nobody is going to play the game and say wow the geometry on the old man is not as high as the old man from the tech demos. Nobody is like that (I should say almost nobody). The point is it looks better.

Agreed, still shots don't tell the whole story. The SH old man looks good because of texturing/art direction not because it's complex in terms of facial animation.

Oh so it seems to me whatever you can say to escape the fact that the PS2 surpassed those demos your going to say it. Lets me put it this way.

If PS2 games looked like those tech demos, the graphics would probably get a 7 or 8. Taking everything into account in the tech demos (I mean everything that you can physically see) Games like God of War, MGS3, Fight Night 2, GT3 and 4, Need for Speed 2, and soon to be RE4 crush those tech demos to pieces.

If God of War or Fight Night 2 was presented as a tech demo in 1999 people back then would have said that they were fake. As a matter a fact some people even said that about MGS2 when it was first shown to the masses. So just face it PS2 games tremendously surpass the tech demos.
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THe problem is they don't look the same .

sigh here is an example .


The sh old man look like yoda from eps 5 the empire strikes back with all his limited facial expresions . While the old man demo looks like yoda from eps 4 where he has many many more facial expresions and looks much more realistic . Now graphicly the two would look just as good in a still but when its in motion there is no comparison .

Remember the old man demo was to show off the emotion engine . Not the picture engine .





btw paserby yes it was but others still want to discuss it and keep draging up threads about it so i decided to let it go on in here at least its controlled and i don't have to run around looking for where its starting up
 
So, have you people reached to the conclusion that all the other PS2 demos, except for the "old-man-animated-highpoly-head-floating-in-space"-demo were reached or surpassed in actual PS2 games?

Can we now get back to the topic of Killzone PS3 demo :LOL:


I would have thought Mr Wibble's very very sane post earlier (which i find worth quoting here, because I don't think ebnough people read it the first time) would have ended this ridiculous "debate"... but no :cry:
MrWibble said:
It seems to me that the main problem here is that people can't comprehend the difference between a tech-demo, concept art, and reality.

Tech-demos exist to show the power of the hardware. They concentrate as much as possible of the available computational effort at a single effect to provide a targetted demonstration of what a machine is capable of. Clearly you can't then assume that the same level of quality will exist when that effect is used on 100 characters at the same time within a complex enviroment and a game running AI and Physics... If the machine had enough power to do all that at the same time then it would use that to make the tech-demo look *even better*.

Tech demos also exist because it's a lot easier to write an example of a single effect on a bit of prototype hardware, than it is to write a whole representative game-segment... especially when you only have a small team of engineers, limited art resources, and almost no time at all.

So anyone looking at the PS2 tech-demos (which to the best of my knowledge were all running on actual hardware, even if some of them were just streaming pre-transformed data at a GS) and expecting to see the same quality in every aspect of every game made since, is going to be disappointed. From an average-joe with no technical knowledge and only a tenuous grasp on logic I guess that's understandable, if a little naive. For people who hang around a technically oriented board like this, you should know better. Shame on you.

The PS2 tech-demos were on actual hardware, therefore they are quite emphatically not BS. They also probably were *all* supassed in terms of utilisation of the PS2 hardware at some point in the PS2's lifespan, it's just that the power was spread across an entire game and not focussed on a single face or character.

To go from "here's a tech-demo of a face", through "faces in games don't look like that", to "Sony are full of s**t" requires a level of ignorance and denial that makes me despair.

Concept-art meanwhile exists to give an *impression* of what something is supposed to look like when it's finished. It exists because if you showed stuff how it looks for 90% of the development, especially before hardware is finished, it'd look rubbish - and imagination doesn't cut much ice in marketing. Concept art gives you something to aim for in development, and something to show externally to demonstrate what you think a product will look like.

The reality is that if the hardware was complete enough to run games like KZ2, and those games were advanced enough in development to be demoed in realtime like that, then the console would be releasing a lot more promptly than "next spring". Either that or everything is going to get another 6-months to a year of polishing and thus is not representative of the final product - which means they'd probably want to tart it up even more to give a more accurate view on what it will look like.

The fact it, any concept-art is just a guess at what will be acheivable. That doesn't make Sony, or anyone else who produces such (which is, to be fair, pretty much every company in the industry) "liars".

What's important is how such demos and concepts are presented and what is said about them. It strikes me that most of the "BS" that is said comes not from Sony, but from the press that prints unfounded stories and rumour, or misquotes from a badly translated interview, or "exclusive source" that turns out to be some idiot in the QA dept. who met a journo down the pub and fancied a free pint.

There are several "facts" being presented both here, and even in some supposedly professional publications which I know, from personal experience, to be total fabrications with no basis in reality. Yet no doubt 5 years down the line we'll be here debating the "lies" Sony told about PS3 and why it never met them, even though these were constructed by 3rd parties and never actually stated by Sony themselves.

It doesn't help when concept-art is released and websites or magazines publish it with "screen-shot" in big letters, though even the most idiotic of editor ought to know that the PSP or PS2 doesn't run in high-def/print resolutions with full AA...

Some unscrupulous (or plain stupid) marketing departments might try to pass rendered concept stuff off as screen-shots. But on the whole I expect they just release some media packs with a bunch of art in, and editors just kind of make stuff up as they go along, because quite frankly an amazing screen-shot sells just as many copies of a magazine or gets just as many hits on their site as it will sell games...

It was pretty clear to me from watching the conference that the demos which were real-time were stated as such, and the handling of controllers and so-forth was made obvious so as to prove the point. Everything else was clearly running off video and probably pre-rendered (as opposed to recorded). It was said that these were visions of what the game companies thought they could produce on the platform. There are probably a variety of different ways in which companies approached that.

Some are no-doubt rendered entirely in art-packages, using features which may or may not be possible to emulate in hardware at decent speed. Some are probably prototypes running on PC, perhaps in real-time, perhaps at a slower frame-rate and frame-grabbed. Perhaps a few are running on prototype hardware already but not fast enough or reliably enough to show live. All just represent the aspirations of development teams who have been given specifications of a bit of hardware and asked what they could do with it. And they were presented just so.

If KZ2 had been realtime, you can expect that they would have shouted about it. Instead it was a segment of video in a sequence to show what some popular games might look like in their next-gen incarnations. Does this mean we'll never anything that good on hardware? No. It simply means that at this stage they haven't yet acheived it, but are working towards it.

It was clear to me from the specifications listed and the tech-demos running on (presumably unfinished) hardware, that Sony are well on the road to delivering a very powerful console. Some of of the numbers are no-doubt creatively arrived at, but no more so than for their competitors.

Mostly what they've done so far is to make public their *intentions*. Sometimes they might suggest something which is beyond what they will finally deliver. I don't think that the inability to accurately predict the future consitutes lying, I think it's just an unfortunate tendancy to want to disclose intended features before they're quite ready, which sometimes isn't going to pan out how they expect. To be fair I think Sony are probably *less* guilty of this than some other people I could mention.

They set lofty goals, they try very very hard to mee them, and they generally only go public when they're pretty sure what they're going to be able to actually build. On both PS2 and PSP they actually upped the spec before release.

Any you can't criticise a company for hype either. It was a PR conference to promote a new product they have coming out, which faces stiff competition from an already announced competitor. Of course they're going to hype it up a bit. If you don't understand the concepts of marketing then you really aren't going to survive in the modern world... also, I have this bridge for sale that might interest you...

In short, if you think concept art directly translates to final product, you might be a little naive. But if you think a tech-demo running on actual hardware in some way constitutes a lie... then you're an idiot.
 
what mr wibble leaves out is that phil harrison (sp? ) has already said to the press that this is what killzone will look like.dispite the fact that the developer is saying its a representation .

Now phil said this on live tv there really isn't much to missread there .

Now he could have said this is what we are hopeing or this is what we think might be possible. But he plainly said this is what we are getting (just see the sony fans quoting it 90 times in a thread)
 
Wow, jvd. This "console war" really has brought out the worst in you.
I don't remember you "discussing" basically much else in the console forum, other than "Sony lied this and that and they should not be trusted because they Killzone is prerendered etc etc etc ad infinitum..."
It's starting to sound like a broken record.

Instead of fuelling these useless neverending quarrellings, shouldn't you be modding the board? Locking and editing the very similar posts you make?
This board it's really gone downhill since E3... and don't tell me it's all for the Sony fans to blame.

Really!! This whole "Who's lying most" debate and acting like some MIchael Moore of consoleworld, speaking of "PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW THE TRUTH!!!!!" is just IDIOTIC!!! AND PURE FANBOYISM!!!!!! not to mention lacking totally a touch to real world (too much smoke and mirrors in the recent weeks ? ;) ).
 
Deepak said:
Who is Tim Sweeney? :devilish:
I'm wondering about him too :LOL:
Kinda depressing you have to listen to the same discussion for 4 months more until TGS or another 1 year until the PS3 launch...
 
Rabidrabbit . You don't seem to follow much here . For awhile the killzone is real time threads from certian members were poping up all over the place or in other threads even after i locked the main source. Now short of banning each and every person who continues to post it in a new thread once the old one is locked I let it stay here .
 
I don't know how people can say that the oldman tech demo is more superior than the scene of the oldman from silent hill. Whether its because of the art direction, the texturing or whatever - visually the silent hill one is much better looking and you can't refute that.

Some of you will say:

LOL, but tekkenmaster you can't compare screenshots

Yeah, true, but I aint a myopic quibbler and ain't prerendered screenshots suppose to look better than real time? Thats like a double-wammo to all those who think the tech demo is better.


Some people try to argue over technical details claiming the oldman tech demo has more polygons and more facial interactions and thus is superior. Well slap me silly and ram a voodoo 3dfx card up my ass - because all I see in the tech demo is a head over a black ground whereas in the silent hill screenshot i see a bearded cowboy in an armani overcoat and a johnny cash tie standing in front of a hilton hotel - take away all those accessories and that guy can be the tech demo man granpa.
 
PC-Engine said:
standing in front of a hilton hotel

Actually he's standing in front of a 2D texture. :LOL:

Also if you look at the stats on the head demo, it's not even using 100% of the hardware.
Had you played the game, you'd know that shot is just a screen of a longer sequence, and that the (dof blurred) "2D" texture is a part of 3D modelled environment. Not a very complex scene, but not just a 2D texture either :LOL:
 
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