thatdude90210
Regular
That's the whole point, they aren't trying to do great looking GCI, they are trying to make it look "in game." It worked, some people are still debating on the subject.MechanizedDeath said:
New Tim Sweeny interview
- Thread starter mckmas8808
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mckmas8808
Legend
This is a videogame not a multimillion dollar CG movie. If it takes lets say 3 years to make a 90 minute movie like Finding Nemo, then why would it take 6 months to make a 1 minute video of Killzone? I still don't understand it. Plenty of games have a lot of CG in it and I know there is no way it takes that long.
I honestly think that the CG intro movie to Onimusha 3 looked better in a technical way. Don't you guys think so?
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marconelly!
Veteran
You don't say.
Haha, man, CGI intro to Onimusha 3 is one of the if not the most impressive and advanced pieces of CGI ever made
Just looking at the quality of the face of main character walking through the smoke at the end, makes me shudder. Comparing something like Killzone trailer to Oni 3 intro is like a slap in the face to people at Robot.mckmas8808 said:
Makes perfect sense . It took 6 months . First you do story boards , then you start to animate it then you render it . A small studio will have a smaller render farm which would take longer to render a video than a pixar render farm for a multi million dollar movie .
MechanizedDeath
Regular
jvd said:
If it's being rendered to spec, I don't think the renderfarm would be the problem. I think it would be mostly creating the models and animating/shooting the scene. I still don't see how the actual render quality of the scene is so intensive, but I don't do cg. It would seem to me that a large, outdoor scene like that wouldn't have a big problem with GI, so should be pretty easy on the old clock ticks.
I just thought of something else though. How's the GI in the demo gonna compare to fp32 HDR effects? Was there any apparent SSS going on? Self-shadowing didn't appear to be perfect, as pointed out in some stills. Not sure how accurate shadowing was on the volumetric explosions either. But I can see how the complexity of the animation would throw some for a loop. But in CoD2, we see the same interaction and animation, just with a lower geometry level. But just a much, if not more guys on screen, and gobs of particle effects in a large environment. PEACE.
EDIT: And why would they waste 6 months storyboarding and shooting a demo when they could have put that time into game development? That KZ demo was wedged in-between a bunch of other game clips. It didn't even seem important enough to showcase on its own.
Who is to say whats its rendered too. I highly doubt that was rendered to the ps3 spec. The ps3 will put out awsome games but that is beyond its reach .
Not to mention that these things aren't a 5 min thing to do . They take time . THen there are tweaks there are changes . Trust me I can see it taking 6 months for the prerender esp if its a small 20 person team .
You sony fans are reaching way to far . The developer said it was a representation adn epic stated them and fight night were the only real time games shown .
jvd said:
Not to mention once you create an asset you can reuse it. If the Killzone "Render to Spec" (OFF TOPIC: Tomshardware.com has a news bite about the RSX still in development) was 2x as long I doubt it would take another 6 months. They already have a lot of the art, animation, and effects compiled for their peice.
Without any concrete information there is not much to say. Ok, it took 6months. How many people? How much time was put into it by those people (man hours)? "Rendered to Spec" does not tell us much, was it using the game engine to output (like HS)?
You could go on and on with questions. Sony is being quiet... but it has been great PR for them so why would they say anything more than the vague, "It is gameplay" "it is rendered to spec" "you will play this" etc... If Sony gets games that look like this big win for Sony. If they do not most consumers wont care... but it will add a new wrinkle to the console debate.
MechanizedDeath
Regular
jvd said:
You see how you troll threads? Who said anything about this being about Sony? Should I start calling you out for the obvious MS troll you are? Oh wait, you might tell me I'm misreading your posts.
I am being completely honest in that this is what I want from this gen. I think the PS3 is gonna be more powerful, but for the same reasons I figured the Xbox would be more powerful, it's common sense. I own a GC and no PS2 anymore. And if you read my posts at GAF, you'd know I'm all over the GoW bandwagon. We all have out biases, but it doesn't stop us from being objective...or at least trying.
THAT said, I asked Laa-Yosh most specific questions, b/c he's the CG expert, not you. I want to know what particular elements of this demo he feels are out of reach of a realtime product. He already mentioned stuff like GI, geometry and volumetric effects. Now, Faf already mentioned that current-gen PC games are already exploring that geometry level per frame. GI, I assume would be a result of the rendering process, and probably going to be one of the elements that's hurt in the final game. But what about the volumetric effects or even the physics and animation of stuff like the hair and vehicles being destroyed?
All you've provided is conjecture, which we have in abundance. I'd prefer the word of someone from this specific field, or at least someone well-versed in computer animation/graphics. I already know what you think about it before you even reply. PEACE.
mckmas8808
Legend
Look jvd all I'm trying to say is there are CG scenes that are better than that. The CG intro for X360's Ghost Recon 3 look damn near realistic. Why do these games CG look so different then? I wish I knew how to print screen the GR3 video in here to show you. Its far better no comparison to Killzone. My mom isn't a CG artist or anything but she thought it was a real movie about to come on, seriously.
And jvd we are talking about 1 minute. Just 1 minute and I'm suppose to believe that. The Onimusha 3 intro was over 3 minutes and the GR3 intro was 2 minutes long. So, hmmm.... how long do you think it took these guys to make these CG videos?
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Fafalada said:Hey, the "to-spec" can mean a lot of things - after all according to MS, the She-male & Robot demo was rendered to use only 25% of XBox spec
exactly . Look at the spaceworld zelda , haven't seen a game looking like that on the gamecube either .
THe only company i can say last generation that didn't lie was sega .
MechanizedDeath
Regular
Acert93 said:
Good point except this debate is really only restricted to enthusiasts. Most casuals (who make up 80-90% of the market) either don't know yet, or won't know about this game until they read about it in a magazine, or when the system launch nears. We've got a lot of assumptions. But we know what those mean.
Seriously, we know it's prerendered, and despite the wording, Morgan Webb's question was pretty clear in what she was asking. So we've got Phil claiming that this is what we'll see at home when the game is released. But besides waiting, what makes these demos so out of reach besides the fact that it looks so sweet? Bouncer looked phenomenal when it was a demo. Animated fluidly, and great graphics for the time. But that was thoroughly smashed by the final product. So merely looking "too good to be true" isn't enough, is it? Do we automatically err on the side of caution, or do we actually try and make a rational decision on what should be expected on a technical level from this next gen? This was, afterall, mostly a cutscene sequence, even if it's in-game. So it's not unexpected that graphics will end up on the high-end. Much like the best scenes in The Bouncer were realtime cutscenes. PEACE.
mckmas8808
Legend
No Sony's tech demos were surpassed remember. Didn't you see the post a couple of pages ago. We have already compared them and we (people who are honest) all know that every one of those tech demos have been surpassed.
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There are many reasons . The talent of the studio doing the cgi , the amount of time the dev team had . Ghost recon 3 for x360 may have been in development for the last 2 years and that cgi may be for the real intro for the game that has been worked on for 2 years .
Remember killzone is not coming out for at least another year if not longer (we don't know if it will be a launch title or when launch is ).
It depends on the teams . Capcom (They make onimusha right ? ) may have thier own cgi group for thier games or they may have sent it out to a bigger cgi team or given them a longer amount of time to do the project .
We don't know all the facts . ALl i know is the dev said it was a representation of the game. If it was really real time or in game assets he would have said it was real time or it was rendered with in game assests .
MechanizedDeath
Regular
jvd said:
http://ps2movies.ign.com/media/news/video/...emos/psx2_1.mpg
http://ps2movies.ign.com/media/news/video/...emos/psx2_2.mpg
http://ps2movies.ign.com/media/news/video/...emos/psx2_4.mpg
http://ps2movies.ign.com/media/news/video/...emos/psx2_5.mpg
http://ps2movies.ign.com/media/news/video/...emos/psx2_6.mpg
Watch these again and tell me you haven't seen anything better than that FF8 dance scene. The head demo is fine since there's not been an exact replica of that situation (eventhough I think it's clear to most people that the level of geometry in that demo had already long been exceeded). But that FF8 dance scene not only lacked the geometry detail in characters that you got in any TTT character (take the barechested Jin model or the Hwoarang model) or background (like the schoolyard or Unknown's stage or just about any stage). That dance demo also had aliasing and clipping. And the lighting was noticeably worse. You don't own a PS2, do you? Pop in TTT and have a good laugh at yourself.
Seriously, I'm ashamed some forum members here are dragging out this lame argument. The PS2 demo nonsense was squashed years ago. Let it go. PEACE.
EDIT: Am I the only person that can get these vids to work? I don't even have an Insider account.
MechanizedDeath
Regular
It's not the first time I've heard that. I don't know, I don't have an Insider account, but I can still view them. But do yourself a favor and hunt down the "PS2 demo videos" or the FF8 dance scene pics from Square Japan. Those demos are nothing special anymore. PEACE.jvd said:
marconelly!
Veteran
What is it about that ballroom scene that makes people think it looks good. It's technically very unimpressive compared to things I've seen in many PS2 games being rendered in realtime. Old guy face demo at least has lots of polygonal detail (but still doesn't look as good as the old guy in SH3, not to mention that old guy in SH3 actually stands in fully realized scenes with backgrounds and other characters with the same amount of detail as him, and effects that the old demo didn't have, like DOF or self shadowing)
