New monitor

Discussion in 'PC Purchasing Help' started by Dresden, Sep 18, 2009.

  1. green.pixel

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  2. Silent_Buddha

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    TN being lowest. The various xVA types vary from middle of the road to approaching IPS. IPS variants are generally top dog. Although som xVA variants can reach equality with the lower quality IPS panels.

    And price pretty much matches the type/quality of panel. You'll pay more for IPS compared to xVA for example. And all budget panels will use TN.

    Regards,
    SB
     
  3. Grall

    Grall Invisible Member
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    Is the yield much better on TN tech than any of the others(and much worse on IPS) and that is the reason it is so much cheaper, or is it just an artificially created pricing barrier?
     
  4. Blazkowicz

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    that must have to do with volumes of production.

    to explain it with bullshit numbers : imagine you're a company building one million reasonably big TN panels per month. Panels cost $100 each.
    Maybe you could make one million VA panels or e-IPS instead of TN, but cost would be like $115, destroying your margins or making your clients buy elsewhere.
    So you build one million TNs, and you build 50,000 good quality panels at a $200 cost (?), sold at a high margin.

    the sad state of affairs is, it's the cheapest tech that sells. People don't care enough : they're willing to put up with horrendous speakers and keyboards, which make me cringe. a 4€ pair of computer speakers is more painful than a TN, especially when a 12€ pair is like 10x better.
    they don't set up their monitors, so they would waste a lot of their monitor's quality no matter what (as a LCD hater, this is where LCD was a progress - people did upgrade from their 60Hz, distorted with black borders CRT. I like to "upgrade" CRT monitors to what they are able to do)
     
    #24 Blazkowicz, Dec 1, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 1, 2009
  5. Silent_Buddha

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    And yes, cost of production goes up with the quality of the panel. TN panels are extremely cheap to manufacture (compared to IPS variants). Add to that, companies are naturally going to charge more (higher margins) for better quality products. So while an IPS panel may not cost 300+ more USD to manufacture than a TN panel, the final product is going to end up being 300+ more USD (more or less) due to cost of materials + better product margin.

    And within each xVA and IPS types there's a variety of sub-types, most of which were created as a way to try to reduce the cost of manufacturing...

    Regards,
    SB
     
  6. eastmen

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    I'm thinking they are racing to 30 inchs. After that going larger for computers don't make much sense . So I'm assuming at that point they will compete on quality . With lcd's i guess the next thing that will do is LED panels as it reduces energy usage quite a bit.
     
  7. Silent_Buddha

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    Maybe not going larger, but I'd REALLY like to see one of the panel makers start pushing higher pixel density panels. I'd kill for a somewhat reasonably priced 3840x2400 res 24" monitor that didn't perform like poo for instance.

    Regards,
    SB
     
  8. Blazkowicz

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    good idea. There's one 200dpi laptop but it's the OLPC 1.
    Looking at text would be so much more enjoyable ; it's weird that we have so great computers but their output is inferior to a 15-year-old printer or a 150-year-old book.

    you would end up looking at 16x16 icons more often than not depending on the software, but hopefully you could use pixel doubling for all bitmap graphics and render fonts, svg, pdf, terminal emulator etc. at full res.
     
  9. eastmen

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    Sure can we just take up the eastmen lasik fund so I can actually see the text on that 24 inch monitor :)
     
  10. Grall

    Grall Invisible Member
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    Why? Pixels at that rez would be pretty much invisible to the human eye on a 24" screen. Also, I can imagine issues with pixel flaws would be much higher with such density...

    I'd much rather see they push color reproduction range, contrast and 120fps update rate instead at a regular 1920 rez. Oh, and cheaper price! :D
     
  11. Blazkowicz

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    yep, I want a 24" 120Hz oled for 100€ please!
    doubling the dpi can come later (that needs quite a high signal bandwith)

    but you sure underestimate the impact of resolution on reading text and numbers. print that webpage and hold it next to your display ;)
    a very old 300dpi laser printer gives me very sharp results.
     
  12. MfA

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    That's mostly because of the RGB pixel structure BTW.

    I wonder if some type of microlens array which mixes the RGB colors per pixel wouldn't be a better way to increase the apparent resolution of displays.
     
  13. Silent_Buddha

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    You'd obviously also need a true resolution independant OS. Win Vista/7 are close but legacy applications still don't play well with pixel scaling.

    Higher pixel density doesn't mean you have to look at microsized text rendered using the exact same amount of pixels.

    But it does allow you to keep the exact same scale on items but they are now rendered with 4x the pixels allowing for much finer resolution and control, further reducing aliasing, further reducing the artifacts produced by font smoothing blending, etc...

    Artifacts in games would become smaller and less noticeable although wouldn't be eliminated completely (assuming your video card can render at a fast enough speed). And even if it can't, with proper downscaling, having 4x the pixel density would mean much closer to original visuals even with downscaling, and less obvious blur and artifacts from downscaling. In other words a 1920x1200 rendered image on a 3840x2400 display would appear virtually identical on a 24" screen.

    In all it's a win-win for everything. If you've never had the pleasure of using the IBM T221 which was a 22" monitor with 3840x2400 res, it was a dream to use with crystal clear screen. Text was infinitely less of a strain to read rendered at the same optical size (only with 4x more pixels).

    The only drawback of the monitor was both it's price and pixel response (around 50 ms). In all other ways it was far superior to using a standard pixel density LCD.

    Regards,
    SB
     
  14. Xenus

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    I don't get people that say don't get that because pixels will be indistinguishable. People tend to say that with the 10-26 1080p TVs. Isn't that the point? Make it at such a density that pixels are indistinguishable. Sure going beyond that point makes it no longer worthwhile but up till that point gains can be made. Though color gamut,black levels, and response time also could use some upgrading.

    I'm currently interested in the Samsung LED monitor. XL2370

    Presently it seems to only be available at Bestbuy for $300 but that should drop by a bit once it starts going out to newegg and the like.
     
  15. Silent_Buddha

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    Sigh, again only a 1920x1080 res (refuse to get one of those for primarily computer use), and at that price it's undoubtably a TN panel. And no display port. And since it's a TN panel, no panel rotation to put it into portrait view.

    Someday one of the monitor makers will release a reasonably priced LED backlit LCD that I'll actually want.

    I understand that 1080p panels make it easier to manufacturers to use them interchangeably with TV products, but gah, give me my full 1200 lines of vertical resolution damnit.

    Regards,
    SB
     
  16. Grall

    Grall Invisible Member
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    Yeah, I find 1080 rez vertical quite awkward for (productive) computer use since so much vertical space on a windows desktop gets eaten up by window borders, toolbars, menu bars, status bars and so on and on. On a 1080 display it leaves the actual available workspace looking like a mailbox slot, and at least I find that very distracting.
     
  17. trinibwoy

    trinibwoy Meh
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    Hmmm I'm seriously considering downgrading from 30" as it's proving too big for how my desk is setup. The workable sRGB setting on the U2410 is tempting but the reports of pink tinting and dithering in sRGB mode kinda sours the whole deal.
     
  18. Tchock

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    Are you doing color critical apps?
    Widegamut handling is a problem, but unless you're really handling iunno- profiled CMYK, or trying to pick out Pantone hues, I doubt you'll have even minor problems with the non-narrowed gamut. (If you really can't tolerate it I suppose the previous 240_ WFP Dells could be better for you)

    Pink tinting however is unforgivable. :twisted::evil:

    Get the HP Dreamcolor. :razz:


    I might need to sell my panel/desktop setup and get an iMac 27" (IPS). Uni denies me hostel space 3 months a year, it'll get tiresome moving everything here and there- or even getting the space to store these stuff in the first place. Ouch.
     
  19. trinibwoy

    trinibwoy Meh
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    Well my current monitor is wide-gamut (3007wfp-hc) and it's rarely a problem. Sometimes the oversaturation is very apparent though, mostly in pics and on the desktop background etc. Games are usually fine. That's not the biggest problem, it's just that my setup puts me too close to the screen and 30" is a lot of real estate to cover.

    Sure, as soon as they offer a $2,000 cash back deal :)
     
  20. Grall

    Grall Invisible Member
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    I caved today and bought a BenQ G2222HDL unit.

    It's apparantly a TN panel with LED backlighting. It claims a ridiculous dynamic contrast rating which I assume is nothing short of utter and blatant lies, as I can clearly see backlight bleeding through on an all-black screen - particulary in the lower-left corner on my particular unit.

    Disregarding that particular flaw, and that it only offers 1 VGA and 1 DVI input and has no viewing adjustments whatsoever other than tilt - and sits VERY low on the desk, it's a quite good monitor. Colours are bright, the image is crisp, there's little to no overdrive artefacts, and response time is quite good. There's some motion blur, but it's quite minor and is not a distraction or hindrance even during "twitch" gaming. Basically you only see it if you look for it, such as when dragging windows around on a static windows desktop etc.

    Now having bought it and installed it, my only genuine regret is I did not pay a little more money for the 24" version, as windows text becomes rather small at full 1080HD rez. *Kicks self* Oh well, I suppose I'll just retire this unit as a backup screen once I find out what I *really* should buy.

    The panoramic view offered by this unit in games that support widescreen is excellent. I feel the experience on a 16:9 monitor such as this one is superior to that of a 16:10 unit such as the Dell screen I used previously before its sudden passing. Desktop work requires more adjustment though, as the loss of those 120 vertical lines is clearly noticeable.
     
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