New dynamic branching demo

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

Re: Demo trying to provide a hack and some FUD

Why not just give Nvidia the market right now. Screw the future!

Uhh, do you not remember the situation a couple of years ago when Nvidia owned virtually the whole market with exclusive OEM deals? Look at what ATI have accomplished in the last couple of years, look at how they raised their profile, killed Nvidia in the first generation of DX9 cards, and got their foot in the door at loads of OEMs. You've just got to look at the OEM deals ATI has signed up for PCIe to see that ATI is killing Nvidia in the PCIe OEM market. All the while Nvidia fart around to get the highest 3DMark score using a £10K workstation and spending their money bribing developers to support the only unique selling point they have in NV40.

While this generation and Fall/Spring refreshes unwind over the next six months, I think you're going to see ATI in a much better, more profitable position than Nvidia, especially when PCIe market penetration starts happening. Nvidia's taking it's eye off the ball when it comes to the OEM market, and that's one of the things that seriously hurt 3DFX.

 

[digitalwanderer]

Re: Demo trying to provide a hack and some FUD

I want to buy a nice video card that I can develop software for via shaders. I am angry because both seem to be run by a bunch of rednecks.

I don't think I've ever heard such an ignorant comment about this site before, you've just made my virtual ignore list.

I suggest nVnews, you'll like their attitude.

 

[AlNom]

It took 8 pages, but finally someone notices the smilie. Thank you very much. Now I have hope for the mankind.

just got around to reading your site to see what some people were talking about

 

[Proforma]

Re: Demo trying to provide a hack and some FUD

Why not just give Nvidia the market right now. Screw the future!

Uhh, do you not remember the situation a couple of years ago when Nvidia owned virtually the whole market with exclusive OEM deals? Look at what ATI have accomplished in the last couple of years, look at how they raised their profile, killed Nvidia in the first generation of DX9 cards, and got their foot in the door at loads of OEMs. You've just got to look at the OEM deals ATI has signed up for PCIe to see that ATI is killing Nvidia in the PCIe OEM market. All the while Nvidia fart around to get the highest 3DMark score using a £10K workstation and spending their money bribing developers to support the only unique selling point they have in NV40.

While this generation and Fall/Spring refreshes unwind over the next six months, I think you're going to see ATI in a much better, more profitable position than Nvidia, especially when PCIe market penetration starts happening. Nvidia's taking it's eye off the ball when it comes to the OEM market, and that's one of the things that seriously hurt 3DFX.

So Nvidia isn't going to be putting out PCIExpress video card? Wow, didn't know that. Thanks for keeping me misinformed.

NV45 isn't a PCIExpress video card? Nvidia isn't working on native PCI-Express video cards?

What have you been smoking?

1) PCIExpress isn't going to take off this year at all, its July 2nd. Its not a big deal for this year,but it will be by the end of next year.

2) We know that PCIExpress is the future, of course Nvidia won't address the future.

I am not trying to defend Nvidia, but some of you guys are making this into a joke and making this way to easy. Stop being a fanboy and look at reality.

 

[pat777]

Re: Demo trying to provide a hack and some FUD

Why not just give Nvidia the market right now. Screw the future!

Uhh, do you not remember the situation a couple of years ago when Nvidia owned virtually the whole market with exclusive OEM deals? Look at what ATI have accomplished in the last couple of years, look at how they raised their profile, killed Nvidia in the first generation of DX9 cards, and got their foot in the door at loads of OEMs. You've just got to look at the OEM deals ATI has signed up for PCIe to see that ATI is killing Nvidia in the PCIe OEM market. All the while Nvidia fart around to get the highest 3DMark score using a £10K workstation and spending their money bribing developers to support the only unique selling point they have in NV40.

While this generation and Fall/Spring refreshes unwind over the next six months, I think you're going to see ATI in a much better, more profitable position than Nvidia, especially when PCIe market penetration starts happening. Nvidia's taking it's eye off the ball when it comes to the OEM market, and that's one of the things that seriously hurt 3DFX.

So Nvidia isn't going to be putting out PCIExpress video card? Wow, didn't know that. Thanks for keeping me misinformed.

NV45 isn't a PCIExpress video card? Nvidia isn't working on native PCI-Express video cards?

What have you been smoking?

1) PCIExpress isn't going to take off this year at all, its July 2nd. Its not a big deal for this year,but it will be by the end of next year.

2) We know that PCIExpress is the future, of course Nvidia won't address the future.

I am not trying to defend Nvidia, but some of you guys are making this into a joke and making this way to easy. Stop being a <bleep> and look at reality.

Do you know what an OEM card is? I'm not afraid that nVIDIA will lose the market though. They always have nForce-3 for OEM and AMD has recently took over the desktop market.

 

[AlNom]

doesn't ATI get some sort of special hints as to what is in DXnext due to Xenon? :?

 

[Proforma]

Re: Demo trying to provide a hack and some FUD

I want to buy a nice video card that I can develop software for via shaders. I am angry because both seem to be run by a bunch of rednecks.

I don't think I've ever heard such an ignorant comment about this site before, you've just made my virtual ignore list.

I suggest nVnews, you'll like their attitude.

My point was to suggest that one company isn't learning
from another companies mistakes and they are both
making huge mistakes that they shouldn't be making.

There is no excuse for Nvidia to cheat or to create
video cards like Geforce 4 MX.

There is no excuse for ATI not using shader 3.0 technology
in at least any products that they put out this year.

Common sense doesn't apply to these two companies?

 

[Proforma]

Re: Demo trying to provide a hack and some FUD

Why not just give Nvidia the market right now. Screw the future!

Uhh, do you not remember the situation a couple of years ago when Nvidia owned virtually the whole market with exclusive OEM deals? Look at what ATI have accomplished in the last couple of years, look at how they raised their profile, killed Nvidia in the first generation of DX9 cards, and got their foot in the door at loads of OEMs. You've just got to look at the OEM deals ATI has signed up for PCIe to see that ATI is killing Nvidia in the PCIe OEM market. All the while Nvidia fart around to get the highest 3DMark score using a £10K workstation and spending their money bribing developers to support the only unique selling point they have in NV40.

While this generation and Fall/Spring refreshes unwind over the next six months, I think you're going to see ATI in a much better, more profitable position than Nvidia, especially when PCIe market penetration starts happening. Nvidia's taking it's eye off the ball when it comes to the OEM market, and that's one of the things that seriously hurt 3DFX.

So Nvidia isn't going to be putting out PCIExpress video card? Wow, didn't know that. Thanks for keeping me misinformed.

NV45 isn't a PCIExpress video card? Nvidia isn't working on native PCI-Express video cards?

What have you been smoking?

1) PCIExpress isn't going to take off this year at all, its July 2nd. Its not a big deal for this year,but it will be by the end of next year.

2) We know that PCIExpress is the future, of course Nvidia won't address the future.

I am not trying to defend Nvidia, but some of you guys are making this into a joke and making this way to easy. Stop being a <bleep> and look at reality.

Do you know what an OEM card is?

Original Equipment Manufacturer, ala the cards that go into computers
like DELL and others.

 

[digitalwanderer]

Re: Demo trying to provide a hack and some FUD

There is no excuse for ATI not using shader 3.0 technology in at least any products that they put out this year.

I agree, but the year ain't over yet is it?

Wait until there is a need for it, if ATi doesn't have it covered by then you can complain.

Common sense doesn't apply to these two companies?

Well, you got that half-right.

I am not trying to defend Nvidia, but some of you guys are making this into a joke and making this way to easy. Stop being a and look at reality.

But nothing you've said so far has made any sense except to defend nVidia, how else are we supposed to take it?

I think you better rethink just how "way to easy" we're making this for you...it's either we're making it to easy or you're so wrong you're truly bordering on clueless.

 

[pocketmoon66]

Wow, quite some response to this thread.

Would be interesting to see a SM3.0 demo to back up your claims. Hope someone do that.

I'm interested too. The demo is fairly simple. It should be easy for someone to just comment out the early-out code, and do some changes to the lighting shader to take advantage of ps3.0.

Well here goes, but I bet this gets lost in the thread


6800GT

1280x960

False 24fps
True 23fps
DB 61fps

Lack of stencil early out (may be just a setup issue with stencil/alpha/etc etc...) but the very very good bit is proving how effective branching can be.

 

[Humus]

It is an hack. This does not replace if statements at all. One thing it does is mess and complicate the renderer..

The solution you presented to shadow volumes may lead to problems if the passes in the stencil go over the 4 bytes. Then you would have to have to use only 3 bits for if statements, or just 2, etc...

Mess? If you consider adding about 20 rows of code a mess, then I don't know what's not messy.
No, I don't think it will lead to any problems ever. Do you really expect an overdraw factor above 16 while at the same time having more than 16 level deep nesting? I would say in 99% of the cases you're fine with one or two bits for the ifs, and 3 bits for shadows.

Sorry! Occlusion. I mean occlusion...

Elaborate?

 

[pocketmoon66]

Humus baby, I think your demos are great Keep it up mate.

 

[Humus]

Well here goes, but I bet this gets lost in the thread


6800GT

1280x960

False 24fps
True 23fps
DB 61fps

Lack of stencil early out (may be just a setup issue with stencil/alpha/etc etc...) but the very very good bit is proving how effective branching can be.

Is this with pixel shader 3.0 implemented?

 

[Proforma]

Re: Demo trying to provide a hack and some FUD

I agree, but the year ain't over yet is it?

When you hear people who love ATI on
here say that they have information that
ATI isn't going to release a shader 3.0 until
1st half of 2005 and thats reliable,how else
am I going to take this info?

ATI already has disapointed me in not
putting shader 3.0 which is a certified DX 9 feature
in their latest video cards and I would have bought
one of them instead of staying with my ATI Radeon
9800 pro. They try to release FUD (hint Nvidia tactic)
that its not important now or in the future until they
have it.

Wait until there is a need for it, if ATi doesn't have it
covered by then you can complain.

I have a need for it, I want to use Object instancing
and I am a software developer (not a major onefrom
a big company but still).

Common sense doesn't apply to these two companies?

Well, you got that half-right.

See, this is the problem. I might not know everything and I am no better than anyone on here, but I am more objective than a lot of people on here.

I have had Nvidia products in the past (geforce, Geforce 3, then switched to ATI's Radeon 9800 Pro, so I am no troll of either company).

You are acting like an ATI fanboy when they are using the same exact strategies I ran away from with Nvidia and cheating and all that jazz.

But nothing you've said so far has made any sense except to defend nVidia, how else are we supposed to take it?

I think you better rethink just how "way to easy" we're making this for you...it's either we're making it to easy or you're so wrong you're truly bordering on clueless.

Its sad that It looks like I am defending Nvidia and thats because of the intense ATI fanboyism in this forum. Its become so bad its sickening. I can understand some of it because of Nvidia cheating and Nvidia's non technology front where Marketing is where the priority is and not technology, but ATI is going in the same path and making a lot of the same mistakes only you can't see it because you are not objective.

Nvidia going into damage control and trying to repair the damage that only those clowns could do to themselves.

ATI starting to go into simular types of damage that Nvidia has done to itself in the past.

Its okay to like ATI or Nvidia, but its not okay to make crap up and be a total fanboy without any objectivity what-so-ever.

 

[pocketmoon66]

Found what was hurting NV cards :

changing
dev->SetRenderState(D3DRS_STENCILPASS, D3DSTENCILOP_ZERO);
to
dev->SetRenderState(D3DRS_STENCILPASS, D3DSTENCILOP_KEEP);

(Early Stencil kill doesn't work if your still writing to stencil??)


OK revised figures using FRAPS

1280x960
FALSE: 51
TRUE: 121 ish
DB PS2 (cmp) 54
DB PS3 (if then else) 65 ish

 

[digitalwanderer]

Re: Demo trying to provide a hack and some FUD

See, this is the problem. I might not know everything and I am no better than anyone on here, but I am more objective than a lot of people on here.

I'm not trying to be objective, I'm trying to be opionated. See, I form opinions of these companies based on their history and for some strange reason I don't think that is a bad thing.

Good luck on your quest, I really recomend nVnews as you don't seem at all receptive to anything else.

 

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

Re: New poster trying to provide some FUD

So Nvidia isn't going to be putting out PCIExpress video card? Wow, didn't know that. Thanks for keeping me misinformed.

NV45 isn't a PCIExpress video card? Nvidia isn't working on native PCI-Express video cards?

What have you been smoking?

Yeah, they will. It will be based on NV40 and be hot, large and power-hungry, and OEMs will ignore it because of that. That's why ATI has already signed up to supply companies like Dell, adn Nvidia is getting small niche suppliers like Alienware (alongside ATI).

1) PCIExpress isn't going to take off this year at all, its July 2nd. Its not a big deal for this year,but it will be by the end of next year.

You are wrong - a lot of people are waiting to go to 64bit CPUs with PCIe. Intel in particular will be pushing it very hard indeed. Why do you think both ATI and Nvidia are getting ready to ship PCIe cards now if nobody wants them? Why do you think Intel is launching PCIe motherboards and Via and Nvidia are already sampling PCIe chipsets?

2) We know that PCIExpress is the future, of course Nvidia won't address the future.

Not with NV40 - it's too big, hot and powerhungry for the OEMs. Nvidia have to get their money back on development costs, and they have already said their first generation is an AGP part using an additional bridge chip, and the refresh just has a bridge chip moved to the GPU.

If NV40 and PCIe OEM contracts are anything to go by, Nvidia will be in big trouble compared to the position they were in a couple of years ago.

I am not trying to defend Nvidia, but some of you guys are making this into a joke and making this way to easy. Stop being a <bleep> and look at reality.

You seem to be saying that ATI is making big mistakes in how it is running it's business. The inroads made into Nvidia's buisiness and mindshare over the last two years say otherwise. The advance OEM contracts for PCIe say otherwise. The better yield and better profit margins on R3x0 and R42x say otherwise. The increased profits and market share say otherwise.

Maybe I should ask you what you have been smoking, because you seem to be seeing the world through some kind of psychedelic mental state that's different from the rest of us.

 

[pat777]

You are wrong - a lot of people are waiting to go to 64bit CPUs with PCIe. Intel in particular will be pushing it very hard indeed. Why do you think both ATI and Nvidia are getting ready to ship PCIe cards now if nobody wants them? Why do you think Intel is launching PCIe motherboards and Via and Nvidia are already sampling PCIe chipsets?

I guess that mean's Intel's integrated chipsets will steal the OEM market from ATI and nVIDIA. BTW, nVIDIA always has nForce for OEMs.

I think 6800 NUs are small enough. What about nVIDIA's midrange cards(besides 6800 NU). I think nVIDIA's mid-range cards will consume much less power than NV40. You seem to forget that mid-range cards are the main sellers from OEMs.

BTW, I made another thread so this thread won't go off-topic.

 

[Proforma]

Re: Demo trying to provide a hack and some FUD

See, this is the problem. I might not know everything and I am no better than anyone on here, but I am more objective than a lot of people on here.

I'm not trying to be objective, I'm trying to be opionated. See, I form opinions of these companies based on their history and for some strange reason I don't think that is a bad thing.

Good luck on your quest, I really recomend nVnews as you don't seem at all receptive to anything else.

So you will factor ATI's current actions and near future actions (ie this year) into that as well? Right?

Opinionated is just really another way to say narrowminded.

I already go to nvnews as well as rage3d. All I want is for the best
for my money and ATI now or in the near future doesn't seem to want my money.

Well your right, I am not receptive to your FUD.
Thanks but no thanks.

Why is it that its sooooo hard to be objective?
Why is it that everyone has to be a fanboy and be so narrowminded?

I love my ATI 9800 Pro, well with the exceptions of Catalyst driver issues when they fix bugs and create new ones monthly. Well to be fair Nvidia's drivers have gone down the tubes too.

The speed that I gained from a Geforce 3 to a Radeon 9800 Pro was insane, code that I have that used to run 250-300 frames per second, now ran at 1000 frames per second, amazing.

 

[KimB]

Re: New poster trying to provide some FUD

Yeah, they will. It will be based on NV40 and be hot, large and power-hungry, and OEMs will ignore it because of that. That's why ATI has already signed up to supply companies like Dell, adn Nvidia is getting small niche suppliers like Alienware (alongside ATI).

Right. Because they're obviously not ever going to reduce the number of pipelines, or ever bother with a different process.