N64 cpu

Was the CPU in the N64 more powerful or less powerful than the CPU used by the KI/KI2 Arcade board? What's the difference between the two CPUs?

How much more expensive was KI's CPU than the N64's one?

The CPU for the N64 is an SGI/MIPS R4300i @ 93.75 MHz.

System16 (the website, not the namco arcade board) says that the CPU on the KI/KI2 Arcade board was some kind of R4600 @ 50 MHz.

Was the N64's CPU powerful enough to run KI2 off its CPU alone? If so, then what's up with KI Gold and the fact that it uses the N64's reality coprocessor?
 
Was the CPU in the N64 more powerful or less powerful than the CPU used by the KI/KI2 Arcade board? What's the difference between the two CPUs?

How much more expensive was KI's CPU than the N64's one?

The CPU for the N64 is an SGI/MIPS R4300i @ 93.75 MHz.

System16 (the website, not the namco arcade board) says that the CPU on the KI/KI2 Arcade board was some kind of R4600 @ 50 MHz.

Was the N64's CPU powerful enough to run KI2 off its CPU alone? If so, then what's up with KI Gold and the fact that it uses the N64's reality coprocessor?

I hope you are also aware that KI1 was ported to SNES, that had a CPU running at 3.67Mhz...

Basically Killer Instinct is a pre-rendered movie game where the player manipulates the limited movie animations, there is nothing real time about it what you saw was constant video footage, think of it as a super duper arcade system that instead of handling digitized sprites like Mortal Kombat it was a fluid movie that was being handled.

also the animations mostly in video type form were designed to fill a hard drive as a storage medium the theory is that yes the N64's hardware could handle and arcade perfect port of KI 1 or 2 as long as you could fit it into a cartridge however the maximum cartridge size that the N64 was limited to was 64MB (512 Mbit) IIRC for shipping games in its last years, if you recall Resident Evil 2 was a 2 CD game on Playstation yet it was compressed and complete in a 64MB cartridge yet it too alot of programming and the game came out years after the original.

Also the N64 CPU could be programmed in the standard SGI microcodes which most games were made or the "custom microcode" mode for more performance but games using this advanced custom microcode programming probably close to assembly like only reached retail in the last years of the N64's lifecycle, a lifecycle that was in the middle of the Sega jumping first to a new generation in 1998 and 1999 (some say the reason why the 64DD was eventually dropped) and Sony having to follow suit with PS2 announced in early 1999 so weeks later Nintendo revealed they were going to make a new console as well.

What I mean is that again an arcade perfect version of KI 1 and 2 could definetly be made possible on N64 as long as custom microcode were to be used and the cartridges were 64MB in size.

However here is the main problem with that:

1: Nintendo chose to please hungry fans or cash in by making a SNES version and fans generaly did not care, they bought the game, it sold millions, many people still play this version on their SNES even to this day.

2: Under the pressure to have KI soon on the new N64 to capitalize on the fans (there was a little backlash though in the media because people started to realize the game was not realtime) so RARE made KI2 Gold as a mix of polygons and the prerendered sprites... we can infer that polygon backgrounds were chosen to give in to the critisizim of the game being prerendered but it does not matter because the game was made very early into the lifecycle of the N64.

3: Appart from the competition (Sony selling tons of PSXs and Sega jumping out of Saturn and to a new gen with DC) Nintendo and RARE were just too busy making games in that kept progressing to as much real time 3d polygons as possible so if all of a sudden they were to say lets make an arcade perfect version of a game that was already played it would have gotten in the way of other projects.

BTW World Driver Championship used custom microcode, was released in 1999, unfortunatly did not have licensed vehicles but boasted 640x480 resolution WITHOUT the 4MB expansion pack and had relatively higher polygon counts than other N64 and PSX's best racing effort Gran Turismo. Unfortunately I don't know how much that game sold thought most N64 big games sold over a million usually and I also don't know what the cartridge size was of the top of my head.

So again as long as you keep in mind how full motion video cutscenes of a 2 CD game port to cartridge like RE2, you throw custom microcode, time and willingness, hell the 4MB expansion cart and a 64MB cartridge the N64 can do it in theory.

However since it did not, it did not so most people will simply say no its not possible because we never saw it.

keep in mind that KIGold was released as a near launch title in 1996 severely limiting the cartrige size it could use due to the fact that it was all new and still expensive.

Also keep in mind that when the 4MB expansion pack was released it was slowly used, first optionally and then in a few big gun games it was required.

The SGI microcode was the easy to develop for standard tools on the N64 and the custom microcode was new and showed up years later obviously so alot of devs did not use (Boss Studios, RARE and Factor 5 being the few) it and those that did were very bold, I don't know if Nintendo's EAD team chose that route but the custom microcode games have proven to be a hassle for N64 emulators meaning that the custom code was really using the N64 much more specificaly.

The 64MB cartridges were only used on big gun games that were either huge franchises, Zelda Majoras Mask, Donkey Kong 64, or games that were expected to be received with huge sales coming from PS platform like Resident Evil 2 port and the planned but cancelled and later sent to Gamecube Resident Evil Zero.

These big carts were also very expensive to make, thats why they were matched with big name games that did indeed sell millions of copies but it did not matter because...

Sega dropped the Saturn and tried to get a head start with what eventually became Dreamcast, a baddly kept secret (public knowledge in 1997), neither Sony nor Nintendo were simply going to allow their competitor to gain a considerable lead so they did what they had to and because Sega went to 1GB Discs, Sony went to DVD-Roms and Nintendo knowing that cartridges were just going to not keep up, decided to go with a custom Mini DVD like format and by that time Microsoft bought RARE so KI is currently dead.

I know I went through history but I hope you understand why I did, I felt it was better to explain it this way then wait for a technical answer that might have fuzzy memory or point to a arbitrary hardware limitation that does not explain or fails to explain why so many high quality titles were made on that console.

Maybe (in theory) if the 4MB+64MB carts+custom microcode would have been standardized and the N64's lifecycle would have been extended (by Sega sticking to Saturn) we might have seen what a SM64 sequel, a Pilotwings 64 sequel a StarFox 64 sequel, etc but this is banking on these games being sold out in the multi million copies as they were still going to be much more expensive to make.
 
Tosh.

KI wasn't any kind of movie at all, pre-rendered or otherwise. It was like any other fighting game of its time, sprites dropped onto flat backdrops. In KI's case, the sprites and the backdrops were pre-rendered rather than hand-drawn, but that changes nothing regarding the underlying technology.

The harddrive merely stored the game itself, it could have been mask ROMs like most arcade machines used back then, but it wasn't, for cost reasons. When you started a game, the machine loaded up the level data and the fighters' sprites into on-board RAM. No data was streamed like a movie off of the harddrive during gameplay.

There were some movies that played now and then - particulary the attract sequence and the ending - but that wasn't gameplay.
 
Tosh.

KI wasn't any kind of movie at all, pre-rendered or otherwise. It was like any other fighting game of its time, sprites dropped onto flat backdrops. In KI's case, the sprites and the backdrops were pre-rendered rather than hand-drawn, but that changes nothing regarding the underlying technology.

The harddrive merely stored the game itself, it could have been mask ROMs like most arcade machines used back then, but it wasn't, for cost reasons. When you started a game, the machine loaded up the level data and the fighters' sprites into on-board RAM. No data was streamed like a movie off of the harddrive during gameplay.

There were some movies that played now and then - particulary the attract sequence and the ending - but that wasn't gameplay.

Correct, except the fact that the backgrounds were not static as other fighting games were at the time. They were a series of rendered stills which changed depending on the "camera" location to give the illusion of a fully 3d rendered background.

Hence the need for a HDD to store the large amount of data the background renders required.
 
KI Gold is stuffed into a 96 megabit (12 MB) cart. That era's storage issues were unfortunate. Ultra slow CDROMs or tiny carts...
 
Correct, except the fact that the backgrounds were not static as other fighting games were at the time.
They were as flat and non-interactive as with any other fighter at the time, that they animated flip-book style doesn't really change that they were flat and non-interacive...:)
 
They were as flat and non-interactive as with any other fighter at the time, that they animated flip-book style doesn't really change that they were flat and non-interacive...:)

Impressive or not, the animating backgrounds are the single biggest reason they needed the large storage medium and why Ki Gold looked like crap in comparison to the arcade version.

No other fighting game used the technique before it.

The others used large bitmaps and scrolled across them. Ki had renders for every potential camera angle and gave the illusion of a very detailed 3d background when in fact it was simply static 2d images as you said.

Kudos to Rare, Midway and Nintendo for trying something new.
 
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Tosh.

KI wasn't any kind of movie at all, pre-rendered or otherwise. It was like any other fighting game of its time, sprites dropped onto flat backdrops. In KI's case, the sprites and the backdrops were pre-rendered rather than hand-drawn, but that changes nothing regarding the underlying technology.

The harddrive merely stored the game itself, it could have been mask ROMs like most arcade machines used back then, but it wasn't, for cost reasons. When you started a game, the machine loaded up the level data and the fighters' sprites into on-board RAM. No data was streamed like a movie off of the harddrive during gameplay.

There were some movies that played now and then - particulary the attract sequence and the ending - but that wasn't gameplay.

www.system16.com lists the specs of KI arcade and wikipedia.org has more information.

I played the arcade versions when they came out, years later played the single KI1/2 emulator and later played the mame32 version that strives for accuracy.

Backgrounds while non interactive like Street fighter II gave the initial impression of 3d ish omg tech, games are still good to ok but the backgrounds really are just a fmv sequence hence why it takes so much space and uses a HDD...

KI Gold is stuffed into a 96 megabit (12 MB) cart. That era's storage issues were unfortunate. Ultra slow CDR OMs or tiny carts...

Indeed Saturn and PSX were released in 1994 with 2X CD-rom drives if maybe a console were to be released in 1996 it might have had a 4X CD-rom drive at best, N64 carts were just faster period despite size.

KI on N64 was expected by consumers and gaming media as a launch or first year game, the limitation (thank you for posting) was a 96 meg (12MB) cart in 1996, were the games re-ported for 2000 they would have had easy access to a 64MB cart and more efficient tools however RARE was way too busy with other projects that were polygon based.

"Pre-rendered" became a dirty word back then and there were attempts early in PSX and Saturn, even NeoGeo up to 1997 or so by 2000 it would take a miracle but afaik KI was not something that people kept wanting since they were happy with SNES and even the N64 version.

Didn't ERP say the actual speed of the N64 cart interface was slower than the PSX?

Try playing Mortal Kombat 4 on PSX vs N64, the latter was more accurate to the arcade version while on the other you where waiting for matches to start.
 
Didn't ERP say the actual speed of the N64 cart interface was slower than the PSX?

Did a quick search because I remembered something like that too:

The irony behind the cartridge is that accessing the cartridge ROM was actually faster than accessing main memory. In a way, one could say that the cartridge both damned and saved the N64.
Not even close.
For small transfers the cartridge was actually slower than a CDROM drive.
Unlike the SNES or Genesis where it was common to run code out of the cart using the cart on the N64 for anything during gameplay was a lot of work. We used it to stream animations and audio data, but that was it

Don't know if he was referring specifically to the PSX, but I'd assume he was referring to the N64's main competition. Looks like it depended on what you were doing.
 
I read an interview with Factor 5 about their Indiana Jones port. They said they were streaming from the cart.
http://ign64.ign.com/articles/087/087602p1.html
IGN64: What strengths and weaknesses did the N64 have when porting this game over from the PC?
Factor 5: The big strength was the N64 cartridge. We use the cartridge almost like normal RAM and are streaming all level data, textures, animations, music, sound and even program code while the game is running. With the final size of the levels and the amount of textures, the RAM of the N64 never would have been even remotely enough to fit any individual level. So the cartridge technology really saved the day.
In terms of weaknesses we fought hard against the fill-rate limitations of the N64. We loved Hi-Res on Rogue because of its crisp look, but the framerate was questionable. So when starting the engines for both Indy and Naboo, the main goal was to get a high framerate in Hi-Res. This meant not using the Z-Buffer, because it alone uses quite a bit of the N64's fillrate.

This was a great port of a mediocre game. It's a bit unstable I think though as I've had it lock up occasionally. But it runs full-time 640x480 and probably looks about as good as you can expect for the hardware.
 
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Just wanted to add since I mentioned Mortal Kombat 4 console port, MK Gold was also a slower loading than N64 carts and for some reason the graphics were not that far away from N64 either, hence I returned it.
 
I believe some N64 games streamed while others did not. Indiana Jones was one of the games that streamed, as it had to decompress before each level for the first time. IMO, the Sega Saturn was a happy balance between loading time and storage space.

@Akumajou: yeah, MK Gold really was pretty damn disappointing--playing MK4 in glide on a PC was the way to go.
 
Lately I've been looking up old console games to find which ones are also on PC. I have a box with a Voodoo5 set up and my god playing those games in Glide with 4X FSAA takes away my nostalgia for the old consoles a little bit more every time. :D Turok, Turok 2, Shadows of the Empire, Top Gear Rally (aka Boss Rally), Rogue Squadron, Battle for Naboo, Indiana Jones ......

Actually the other day I set up Project64 with Perfect Dark and managed to get a bit of keyboard + mouse going. OMG forget that N64 controller! And gimme more 16X AA and anisotropic and shockingly higher resolutions. ;) The clarity is insane compared to a N64. And I think the "hi-rez" mode runs at around an agonizing 10-15 fps on a N64.

Why was Sega Saturn a "happy balance between loading time and storage space"? It used CDs and carts right? A 2X CDROM and the typical mid '90s cart sizes I'm sure...
 
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Why was Sega Saturn a "happy balance between loading time and storage space"? It used CDs and carts right? A 2X CDROM and the typical mid '90s cart sizes I'm sure...

It wasn't. I don't know who alluded to such a thing but plenty of Saturn games have long loading times. Its use of carts is irrelevant considering these carts were only there to allow more memory in certain titles, predominantly 2D games for higher res sprites and better looking backgrounds. And only then the main people to take advantage of the different carts were Capcom and SNK.
 
Saturn had a nice buffer of memory for its CD-ROM which helped manage load times noticeably better than on PS.
 
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