my theory (long and boring)

elimc

Newcomer
The following is a theory I have been working on for a number of years. I dibbled and dabbled for a number of years never commiting due to health reasons and am finally getting to writing down my thoughts. The reason I am posting is because there are certainly some very smart people here (way too many to list). I am posting this because I am not very smart and need to bounce ideas off others. Mostly, I need criticism. The following is a very basic version of my ideas and I am not worried a lot about spelling or grammar errors. Holes, criticisms, not explained thoroughly? Let me know. I will be going to Europe on the 4th and it will be good to collect my thoughts while I'm there.


Do we really have control over anything, or do we operate along the lines of determinism? We make “decisions†heavily influenced by our subconscious from a selection of a vast amount of incorrect and at best skewed information. The decisions themselves are small, insignificant, and generally channeled by vast forces that we have no control over. Has society really advanced when over 6½ billion people do not really grasp why E = MC^2; perhaps the most original or even the only original concept ever developed by mankind (the concept of social and physical relativism was not exactly a new idea and would most likely have eventually been universally accepted in a matter of time, however Einstein was the first to have scientifically quantified it)? This just exemplifies our forced use of deterministic responses in an ever increasing world of social stratification of the information haves and have-nots. Our society goes along operating on the principle that our principles are correct. After all, where would our confidence be if someone pointed out that our most basic axioms were developed by man, who has never made a perfect system? Realizing man’s human fallacy, some turn to religion, claiming that our seemingly harmonious world had to be created by a superior being. After all, religion answers questions that atheism can’t, “Where did we come from?†The problem is, where do we turn when religion can’t answer our questions, “If God is so good, why are so many going to hell?†The accepted answer is usually. “Humans can’t comprehend God’s plan.†Another good question would be, “Is religion just society worshipping itself?†as the late Emille Durkheim suspected. After all, religion tends to value whatever the masses currently agree upon. The other main alternative is atheism which pulls itself up by its’ bootstraps. Man has always tried to find the most basic certain truths. Mainly we do this through logic which induces logic which induces logic. “I think, therefore I am†was developed hundreds of years ago. However, all logic must come from a most basic logic, which in the end relies upon a belief. Does 2 + 2 = 4 or is it a man-made conceptualization? Could 2 + 2 = 5, or is it a concept outside of the realm of human thought and interaction; is there an actual physical realm outside of our thinking? An atheist’s most basic logic is based, in the end, on beliefs. Meanwhile, the agnostics must suffer in the middle without getting the benefits that either side has to offer. It is no wonder that emotions rise as a futile struggle against the system of Entropy.

So what is our best response? I believe that we must operate on the Principle of Practicality. Our decisions are manipulated by forces outside and inside of our cerebral cortex. The best that we can do is to live to our most deterministic potential and hope that nothing goes wrong. Life has a low margin for error and will take your breath away at a moments notice. From when we are conceived until the day that a vacuum fills our lungs, our best option is to follow our best options and enjoy everything in between.

We operate in a world where our decisions are squeezed between 3 forces:

1) Those outside of our control – These include any type of mass movements or decisions that are exogenous: war, social stratification of the classes, and social expectations. For example, our system of marriage is absurd. Why is it the man who generally proposes? Why does he get on one knee when he does so? Who made marriage monogamous in our culture? Why does an overpriced rock symbolize marriage? These are all decisions that we follow and have had no say in. They were created hundreds of years before we were born but the penalties for not following these mores are harsh. Try giving your future wife the ring you pulled out of a crackerjack box! The point is clear; we really have no choice but to follow social expectations. This is why geniuses are sometimes ostracized and teenagers are told they are rebelling. When you don’t follow along with social expectations you are outside of the mold and pressured to return through various means of abuse and berating. According to the renowned sociologist, Peter Berger, there are 3 ways of dealing with social persecution:

1) Get in line with the majorities’ concept of what is acceptable – If Marx were around to study the Asian labor situation in the 1800’s, he would have had a smile on his face. To say that the US treated Asians very poorly is an understatement. They lived in substandard housing conditions owned by racist and profiteering business owners. Workers were malnourished, underpaid, and died by the thousands. It is the classic version of the bourgeois suppressing the proletariat. The blacks were facing similar persecution, but not at anywhere near the same level as the unfortunate Asian émigrés. However, while the blacks still face lesser, but still substantial racial problems around the country, Asians generally face very little racial discord with the general population. This is because they have not only accepted the capitalistic system and culture of the West but they have become masters of it. Many East Asians silently cloaked themselves under the ideals of capitalism and improved upon the West’s individualistic tendencies by balancing it’s ideals out with the Eastern cultural values of self sacrifice for the good of the community. Go to any college and you will see a substantially higher number of Asian individuals on temporary visas getting degrees than individuals from African countries doing the same. It is very hard to justify contempt of those who have achieved success through socially acceptable means. Those associating with this form of ideology would say that, “success is the best form of revenge.â€
2) Form a subculture – When a number of people suffer real or perceived persecution they are united through the fact that they are all suffering the same problem. The solution is to unite based on group ideals. In general, these subcultures are untied by a charismatic leader whose main goal it is to routinize the legitimization of the groups’ beliefs and ideals. There are many examples of subcultures throughout the history of the world. They are inevitable with the increasing pace of diversity in the world. Most of the recognizable subcultures had very charismatic leaders whose charisma was sealed due to death at a young age: Abraham Lincoln, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Ceaser Chavez, Tupac, Kurt Cobain, Jesus, etc . . . My definition of charisma is the ability to see things in a new way and then convert others to this new way of thinking.
3) Withdrawl – As the title implies, this method simply involves withdrawing from society. You, in a sense, cut yourself off from social demands while society cuts itself off from you. It is similar to the physical form of depression in that it is internalized and backs away from problems under the idea that all control of surrounding are lost. An experiment illustrates this concept: Two groups of cats were put in two different types of cages. One group was put in a cage in which it was easy to get out. Another group was put in a cage in which it was impossible to get out and the cats were shocked every time they tried to do so. Eventually the cats in the electrified cages learned not to even attempt to escape. Their ambivalence continued even when the electrical penalties were removed from the cages. Withdrawal is not necessarily bad. Humans have the ability to withdrawal into areas that showcase the heights of human abilities; Newton, Michelangelo, and Max Weber all withdrew at times in their lives to perfect their works. Nowadays, professional sports teams go to various out of the way facilities to train and focus on self improvement. Buddhist monks meditate for hours on end and stressed-out suburbanite commuters practice Pilates on their lunch breaks. We all have a need to withdrawal at some points in our lives and “center our chi,†“sharpen the saw,†“just get away from it all,†or any number of other catch phrases that can be used.

This is not to say that withdrawal is always a good thing. The only 2 things in life that keep us in line with reality are math and social discourse. We need discourse to continually update reality, since it is socially determined. We need to bounce idea off others to see if we are on track. Humans are a bizarre creature; our large egos have a tough time comprehending how badly we need others. Put a man on an island alone and after a short time he will start to develop outrageous thoughts. No matter how mentally or physically tough we think we are, without others, we are nothing but a wild animal with no sense of self.


2) The skewing of information from our senses to our decision making parts of the brain – We are nothing but a mass of biochemicals operating in a form of unison. As such, any chemical mishap can send erroneous information to the decision making part of our brains which can only make sense of a very small amount of this sensory information. The information is routed through a part of the brain known as the thalamus. This part of the brain determines where information is to be sent. This is one of the first places errors may occur in sensing information. For instance, one of the theories of ADD is that people afflicted with this condition receive too much information for the thalamus to handle causing what is known as the “closed faucet hypothesis.†MS, epilepsy, autism, and many others exemplify how easy it is for information to be screwed up before the cognitive brain even has a chance to process it. To those who have a “normal†brain, we are still faced with the incredible inadequacy of the human brain. Its’ small size, slowness of computation, and all too human requirements of a finite supply of nutrients and resources cause our perceptions and judgments to be heavily skewed. We make constant mistakes in simple everyday tasks like estimating size, shape, and color of objects. Automobile accidents happen daily at a large rate and this is a task that the mind is fully cognitive of. Surely the amount of mistakes we make everyday without thinking about it must be staggering. For example, experiments show that people in a good mood tend to rate others more highly than those in a bad mood without even seeing or knowing these people. This is a case of our biochemical system complicating the cognitive functions in our lives. Indeed, in any case where emotions are involved, decisions and perceptions are never truly accurate. Being that people are emotional and not rational animals, it is easy to see how people are inadequate.

3) Body-Mind Conflict – Place a person in front of a hill and the chances that the subject will incorrectly judge the slope by a wide margin is very large. Why would the mind so largely mistake the slope of a hill? The answer probably has to do with the body-mind conflict. In order to conserve energy and survive longer, humans have reached a point where the body will lie to itself. Even if the mind cognitively sees a 10 degree slope, the body will lie and assume a 30 to 45 degree slope. This is not the only subconscious system in place to protect ourselves from danger; there are other “guardian angels†in place. There seems to be somewhat an innate fear of spiders and snakes. It is completely irrational, especially since far more people die each year of bee stings, ladders, and even toilets. Another example of mental altercation of judgment is the body’s ability to repress painful memories. Often time’s patients returning from bouts of serious depression or other psychological disorders have a hard time believing some of the things they said or did. Many will forget all but the most traumatic experiences and express incredulity at hearing about these past actions. From a logical perspective it makes sense that the body needs to lie to itself in order to increase survival rates and even just to function. The world would be a pretty dull place indeed if it was filled with unemotional people with absolute perceptions. Many of the higher forms of human ability would not be ever created. There would be no Picassos or Orwells.

The US Marines their own personal slogan for this mind-body conflict, “Pain is sweat leaving the body.†Pain is really just another biochemical message. It is simply a subjective illusion. It can be turned on or off along with the thalamus. Any hardcore runner can tell you about “hitting the wall.†This happens when the oxygen contained in the body’s muscles is absorbed and the body is forced to switch over to anaerobic respiration, an inefficient way to keep the body going by breaking down important fat and muscle cells in the body to sustain itself. The body sees it like a power plant which has run out of coal and switches to a gerbil running on a treadmill to get energy and expresses this concern to the brain. Meanwhile the brain knows that things will be alright because it has been taught by others that this stage will occur and you can continue without dieing. The body many times will say something that the brain cognitively knows is wrong and the result to those inexperienced is a sense of confusion or fear; so our runner keeps going and after finishing the race has acquired experience to more easily overcome those pain signals urgently sent by the body for the next race.
 
Although I could go into details, doing so would not be very beneficial because, well, to put it bluntly: when I read your text I get no sense of direction. If I got the question "What is elimc suggesting here?" I wouldn't know what to answer. The message doesn't come across.

Have you made a disposition (correct word?)?
 
I see the first point as simply a matter of socializations and the problems they might cause. The other two matters are more of a personalized individualistic theme. I'd like too make a point for the writer here too help put things in perspective a little better.

Group dynamics is were the individual and the collective meet and conflict. This is a fundamental theme in life. Its important to understand that there is no resolution between the two philosophically speaking and its the cause or root of a massive amount of social problems that are quite un-resolvable. Ether you accept the notion that their is no individual or the reverse.. no collective and go on with your social model or you do the unthinkable and leave the matter unresolved.

Most sociological thinkers settle for the idea that socialization and nurture is the primary cause of inequality and social stratification. This explains why so many become Marxist or socialist. Generally speaking they become collectivist and believe that the individual is solely a product of their environment. (becoming biased for nurture over nature in the un-resolvable debate of nurture vs nature, another assumption.) I could go on and on here but I won't for the sake of brevity. I guess my point is though that there are un-resolvable social problems founded in collectivism vs individualism and you should consider that debate on a personal daily basis, it helps you put matters in perspective. I agree that there are socializations that are ridiculous BTW.

On the individualistic matter you bring into play I see the theme of psychology. Generally speaking I see psychology as bad science with the exception of attempts to deal with emotional disturbances with a biochemical approach.(but even that isn't horribly effective ether.) The single most important issue regarding psychology IMO is the patients belief that someone can help them. Basically I hold the belief that there isn't much a psychologist can do that a good friend can't. Mostly people just want others to understand their perspective and be sympathetic simply by understanding it.

I won't bother picking at your ideas here. I will echo what horvendile made of point of though. There seems to be little in the way of direction or conclusion. Maybe some refinement or a more thoroughly edited version would be more conclusive. A small nit pick regarding the format of your article would be too use smaller paragraphs in point form, it helps to keep the readers attention. Long paragraphs with multiple points become a source of discontent in readers generally speaking.
 
I agree with horvendile; whilst you raise some interesting points they seem disconnected and their seems to be no unifying idea or theory. The closest you get is when you propose, " I believe that we must operate on the Principle of Practicality....the best that we can do is to live to our most deterministic potential and hope that nothing goes wrong". This seems a rather weak conclusion to some otherwise thoughtful but jumbled ideas. You need to think: what is the point I am making and what examples can I use to best illustrate it? Try not to digress and keep focused.

Good luck :)
 
anaerobic respiration uses the same fuel as aerobic respiration. It simply is where the reaction cannot go completely due to the lack of oxygen. It cuases pain becuase the point in the reaction it stops at is with end products of lactic acid which lowers the pH in the muscles causing them to stiffen up, interferes with a few enzyme processes and causes pain (just like any other acid that's inside your body, probably due to the way acids have a habit of being destructive as far as the body is concerned and nerves have a habit of complaining when they're getting destroyed).

The pain disappears because heart rate etc go up to provide enough oxygen to the muscles to keep a sustained aerobic reaction going and to allow and lactic acid around from the initial burst to also be reacted the rest of the way.

athletes train for their bodies to be able to sustain a faster aerobic respiration. If your body is not able to supply enough oxygen and you attempt to keep going anaerobically you will collapse.


oh and || and || together is ||||, unless you want to change definitions then 2+2=4 as that's simply what we defined them as.
 
Although I could go into details, doing so would not be very beneficial because, well, to put it bluntly: when I read your text I get no sense of direction. If I got the question "What is elimc suggesting here?" I wouldn't know what to answer. The message doesn't come across.

I agree with horvendile; whilst you raise some interesting points they seem disconnected and their seems to be no unifying idea or theory. The closest you get is when you propose, " I believe that we must operate on the Principle of Practicality....the best that we can do is to live to our most deterministic potential and hope that nothing goes wrong". This seems a rather weak conclusion to some otherwise thoughtful but jumbled ideas. You need to think: what is the point I am making and what examples can I use to best illustrate it? Try not to digress and keep focused.

You are all correct. I have work to do still on it, especially the conclusion. Basically. I'm going to expand on my idea of practicality. What I'm really trying to get at is my belief that there are no absolute truths. I'm saying there is no right or wrong, and morals are simply made up by the majority and change over time. It's anti-idealistic in a way, but opens up a way for better living, IMO. Chosing the practical solution will allow you to stay afloat in ever changing conditions.

What people consider absolute truths tend to usually be the most practical solution, however. For instance, if you kill your neighbor, people will probably get mad at you and kill you back. However, if you believe in the absolute truth of thou shall not kill and are in the middle of a war zone, you will have a good chance of dieing. It's the same with stealing, lieing or any number of other morals. People must adapt to survive. Things that were considered morally right only a few years (eg-racism) ago are now criminal offenses and things that would send you to death row are now legal (eg-partial birth abortions).

Group dynamics is were the individual and the collective meet and conflict. This is a fundamental theme in life. Its important to understand that there is no resolution between the two philosophically speaking and its the cause or root of a massive amount of social problems that are quite un-resolvable. Ether you accept the notion that their is no individual or the reverse.. no collective and go on with your social model or you do the unthinkable and leave the matter unresolved.

Most sociological thinkers settle for the idea that socialization and nurture is the primary cause of inequality and social stratification. This explains why so many become Marxist or socialist. Generally speaking they become collectivist and believe that the individual is solely a product of their environment. (becoming biased for nurture over nature in the un-resolvable debate of nurture vs nature, another assumption.) I could go on and on here but I won't for the sake of brevity. I guess my point is though that there are un-resolvable social problems founded in collectivism vs individualism and you should consider that debate on a personal daily basis, it helps you put matters in perspective. I agree that there are socializations that are ridiculous BTW.

That's an interesting way of looking at things. I would think that individualism tends to be more of our subconscious "acting out." It's like we are torn between society and our biological needs. I have a lot of writing to do.

anaerobic respiration uses the same fuel as aerobic respiration. It simply is where the reaction cannot go completely due to the lack of oxygen. It cuases pain becuase the point in the reaction it stops at is with end products of lactic acid which lowers the pH in the muscles causing them to stiffen up, interferes with a few enzyme processes and causes pain (just like any other acid that's inside your body, probably due to the way acids have a habit of being destructive as far as the body is concerned and nerves have a habit of complaining when they're getting destroyed).

The body needs fuel to keep going. As I understand it, the body switches over from the citric acid cycle to the very inefficient process of anaerobic respiration when all availiable oxygen is consumed. The resulting urge is the same one would experience when drowning underwater and sends panic signals to the brain. From experience, I know that this fear is grossly exaggerated and can be mentally overcome. I believe that pain is subjective to some degree. Just look at a child who scraped their knee and got a boo-boo. They wail pretty hard even though their life is not threatened. I'll try to make my point more clear in my next draft.

athletes train for their bodies to be able to sustain a faster aerobic respiration. If your body is not able to supply enough oxygen and you attempt to keep going anaerobically you will collapse.

Yes, your body will shut itself down as a protective mechanism. Doctors rely on the body using anaerobic respiration when a subject is knocked out for surgery. My real point is how your subconcious is trying to protect itself by sending false messages to your brain before you reach this point. Frankly, I see it as the body lieing to the brain.

oh and || and || together is ||||, unless you want to change definitions then 2+2=4 as that's simply what we defined them as.

Yes 2 + 2 = 4 because it is our definition. Is there an actual conceptual world where 2 + 2 = 4 or is it based completely on social discourse? I want to challenge the common assumption that our most basic facts are set in stone. It is not a new concept, but a very interesting sociological one. George Orwell covers it in his book 1984.

Thank you for the responses so far.
 
elimc said:
What people consider absolute truths tend to usually be the most practical solution, however. For instance, if you kill your neighbor, people will probably get mad at you and kill you back. However, if you believe in the absolute truth of thou shall not kill and are in the middle of a war zone, you will have a good chance of dieing. It's the same with stealing, lieing or any number of other morals. People must adapt to survive.

So, you are basically espousing the virtues of moral relativism, then?
 
So, you are basically espousing the virtues of moral relativism, then?

I think that moral/ethical relativism has some real problems that I believe my theory of practicality does away with. To take it directly from your article:

These situations have demonstrated that the moral relativist theory has its flaws, and they are quite severe. The question arises over what cultural aspects should be appreciated from afar, and when intervention in another societys practices is necessary. Other objections to moral relativism criticize it because it does not account for situations in which an individual may be a member of more than one society, each with its own (possibly conflicting) moral codes. An individual who is both a businessman (corporate society) and a Christian (religious society) would be in a dilemma if he was asked to alter some confidential documents for the company. The society in which he works would expect him to comply to their standard of conducting business, but his moral obligation to his church would prohibit such an act, and moral relativism is of no use to him because he is told to respect both of their codes equally. Therefore, moral relativism is restricted to cases in which only one society is in question.

Even with this provision, moral relativism encounters difficulties when a single society has an incomplete or inconsistent set of moral rules. In this case, the individual member may experience trouble discerning the obligatory moral act and moral relativism does not come to his or her aid. Furthermore, if an individual moves from one society to another, moral relativism implies that he or she must dramatically alter his or her core values and sense of morality to conform to the new locale. This seems an absurd request, especially when moral beliefs are ingrained so deeply in peoples consciousnesses and cannot be abandoned and altered upon physical displacement of the body. Perhaps it is the definition of society which needs to be reevaluated for use in moral theories because its employment has caused controversy in many theories and its definition has been proven to be too vague.

Another objection to moral relativism is called by Fred Feldman The Reformers Dilemma, which describes the situation of an activist who sees a society in need of improvement and feels compelled to propose some alteration for its citizens. However, the theory of moral relativism prohibits such an action because it requires the acceptance of the society as it is. In short, anyone who advocates reform is mistaken (Feldman 166), which has obviously been proven false by Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Jr., and countless other admirable leaders. The objections that have been outlined are the primary criticisms of moral relativism.

It seems to me that moral relativism tries to do away with the friction encountered by different cultural and individual viewpoints by making everything ok. This is not a real world practicality. There will always be beliefs that clash with one another. If you stuck a moral relativist into downtown Bagdad after the fall of Sadam Hussein for instance, he would have trouble finding which culture to suscribe to and would end up dead. His best solution would be to suscribe to pragmatism which would espouse doing what is possible to survive. I see this Principle of Practicality as something that is a superior solution to moral relativism. Of course, there may be holes that I can't see yet.
 
elimc said:
So, you are basically espousing the virtues of moral relativism, then?

I think that moral/ethical relativism has some real problems that I believe my theory of practicality does away with. To take it directly from your article:

Moral relativism doesn't have any problems. It's the people who understand it that it posses the problem too. If there is no absolute right or wrong then where does society draw the line so to speak on any given moral issue? I understand what you are saying in terms of the problem it brings though but this does not mean that it is not a real issue. It is a big problem.

If you have a collective you need rules.. who's rules? When someone breaks the rules how too punish them etc.. Is it unjust to create rules that you know some will break? Because there are no absolutes there will always be an exception to the rule. Every case is different and unique. Yes moral relativism is problematic but that does not make it any less important. You cannot dismiss ethical relativism when creating a set of laws for society. The problem with moral relativism becomes clearly just where to draw the line so that you can organize society in some coherent way. So the prescription ought to be as simple as possible to maximize liberty and happiness.
 
Most sociological thinkers settle for the idea that socialization and nurture is the primary cause of inequality and social stratification.

That's odd. I would have thought that most sociologists would see stratification as the inevitable result of the rise of the state. But I am not an expert in these things either.
 
elimc said:
Most sociological thinkers settle for the idea that socialization and nurture is the primary cause of inequality and social stratification.

That's odd. I would have thought that most sociologists would see stratification as the inevitable result of the rise of the state. But I am not an expert in these things either.

No they generally believe that the answer is in the state. They believe they can tinker with socializations to create less inequality. But usually the collectivist is also very concerned about monetary inequality.. Plato was the originator of the idea that inequality is the primary cause of dissatisfaction in life. Ever since collectivist utopian thinkers have always looked to delimit as much inequalities from their models as possible. My overly simplistic philosophy on that is that if it isn't one dammed thing it is another in human affairs.
 
elimc said:
I'm going to expand on my idea of practicality. What I'm really trying to get at is my belief that there are no absolute truths. I'm saying there is no right or wrong, and morals are simply made up by the majority and change over time. It's anti-idealistic in a way, but opens up a way for better living, IMO. Choosing the practical solution will allow you to stay afloat in ever changing conditions.

I think morals are a natural reaction, inherent to the human being. As a social element, we (I think) have two different instincts of survival: the self protecting one, where life comes first than anything. This is on top of any other instinct, and is the one that powers all the others (breathing, eating, etc). Afterwards, once we reach adult life, we tend to acquire a different instinct. Now we're conscious of our environment and the people conforming it, and we realize of it as part of ourselves. We understand the society as ourselves, and therefore we conceive moral as a way of surviving with the society and to the society. As I see it there’s no practical escape to a moral way of living, whether be it good or wrong.

This comes from the same concept that differentiates moral from ethics. Shortly describing the difference, moral refers to the sum of different judgments of what is wrong and what is right, which we need to proceed with our lives from the very beggining to the very end, while ethics are the way to reflect about this judgments and the route to their understanding. I think our society is lacking a sense of ethics. We are tending to accept the moral rules that where pre-conceived by societies living under different situations than what we live nowadays and so will be forever. Moral is not something we can escape from, however, ethics is something we shouldn’t escape from.

I hope this was understandable (English is not my first language)

Oh and BTW, elimc, I think “there are no absolute truthsâ€￾ is a contradiction itself, since you are taking as a truth, that there are no truths :p
 
The author of the moral relativism article stated at the beginning that he was proposing a modification to the moral relativism concept to escape its flaws, however after reading it i could not find a conclusion beyond the pros and cons of moral relativism :? was there any conclusion I did not see?
 
My 2 cents,

We (humans) are just a drop in the ocean...we are limited to what we can conceive, observe and comprehend, therefore any conlusion on our reallity is inherently limited by that notion...

PS: Did you take the red pill or the blue pill or both! :oops: ...got any spare ;)
 
I think morals are a natural reaction, inherent to the human being

i disagree with that notion... morals do not come natural to the human being, the only thing that we acquire when we are born is instinct... morals are formed and shaped up by our immediate "surroundings" at first and the society that we are growing up when we finally start to reach adulthood... there are a lot of examples for that but one that i particularly like is, take ancient Sparta, at the time they had slaves called "Eilotes" and because the slaves outnumbered the conquerers by a significant margin it was quite allright for a Spartan citizen to kill a slave in cold blood without answering to anyone, in fact there was considerable recognition and maybe rank to be gained by such an action... an action which by today's moral standard we would characterise as atrocious to say the least...

i agree with jaws in the fact that our brains are sort of "primitive" as of yet since in the evolutionary scale of the species we are just a dot of the bigger picture... maybe you should come back again in a few millenia, we'll probably be able to answer you then... now where is my f@ckin coffee
 
There is Truth.

Now there are good things to do and not so good, obviously and truth encompasses them both. :)

Clearly there are principals which if we would apply all the time would benefit us without any question. Like do no kill.

We can consider that the absolute truth.

However from the practical point of living in this world with its problems and interactions. That "absolute truth" is certainly not equal with "It will be better for me if I practice it always". It would be better for everyone if everyone practiced it always. However for me individually, it can be at best better if I practice it most of the time.

In other words if you are drafted to defend your country from invaders, do not kill is not a good way to deal with the reality, because the other side decided to run over that principle already, so you either react or be killed.

Point: There are absolute truths, however they are only valid (or applicable) as long as everyone subscribes to them - and that is why everyone is happy for them to be enforced by a higher entity as the state.
 
Oh and BTW, elimc, I think “there are no absolute truthsâ€￾ is a contradiction itself, since you are taking as a truth, that there are no truths

This has turned out to be quite a sticky point for me. I am proposing that there is no absolute truth as a way of dealing with cultural clashes and the negative aspects of moral relativism. But how do we decide what is most pragmatic and who decides it? My Principle of Practicality seems to work well on an individual scale, but when I applied it to society as a whole, things seemed to not work so well. Dang . . . :(

Hopefully I can resolve this before morning. I'm going to be talking to a PhD in philosophy tommorow. He is a pretty smart guy and maybe he can help me out some.
 
Anyway, you've all been very helpful (Sabastian gets a star). I appreciate all of the observations.
 
rotten said:
I think morals are a natural reaction, inherent to the human being

i disagree with that notion... morals do not come natural to the human being, the only thing that we acquire when we are born is instinct... morals are formed and shaped up by our immediate "surroundings" at first and the society that we are growing up when we finally start to reach adulthood... there are a lot of examples for that but one that i particularly like is, take ancient Sparta, at the time they had slaves called "Eilotes" and because the slaves outnumbered the conquerers by a significant margin it was quite allright for a Spartan citizen to kill a slave in cold blood without answering to anyone, in fact there was considerable recognition and maybe rank to be gained by such an action... an action which by today's moral standard we would characterise as atrocious to say the least...

i agree with jaws in the fact that our brains are sort of "primitive" as of yet since in the evolutionary scale of the species we are just a dot of the bigger picture... maybe you should come back again in a few millenia, we'll probably be able to answer you then... now where is my f@ckin coffee

I understand what you're saying, and I also agree. I am not saying that morals are something we are born with, and of course what we acquire (as you say) as moral parameters are only according to the surrounding (which I mentioned in my previous post). My real point is that we're not able to elude the need for morals as soon as we are living in society, be it nowadays or Sparta. Morals are inherent to the human being from the moment it is a social being. We cannot develop ourselves healthy without a society around us, be it a modern society, or the society that a wild man may acquire, well, in the wild :), and a society cannot evolve without rules, be it implicit or explicit.

Regarding the principle of practicality that you propose, I may be failing to understand it correctly, however I think is somewhat related to acting more instinctively? escaping from the moral patterns we're used to and acting in order to achieve the best practical result, putting this first over what we are expected to do. Am I more or less on track with what you are trying to expose?
 
Regarding the principle of practicality that you propose, I may be failing to understand it correctly, however I think is somewhat related to acting more instinctively? escaping from the moral patterns we're used to and acting in order to achieve the best practical result, putting this first over what we are expected to do. Am I more or less on track with what you are trying to expose?

Yes. What we are expected to do would be more of a social fact while I see morals as an agreed upon system of right and wrong. Examples of social facts are women shaving their legs, people showering, saying hello when you greet someone, standing up for the 7th inning stretch, or any of the thousands of other odd things we do daily that were created before we were born and that we have no control over. Violating social facts causes us beratement from our peers or at the very least, weird glares.

By following things practically, you operate within the bounds of these constraints by making the best decisions out of the finite responses given to you. I see it as a better individual solution than other alternative means of living such as ethnocentrism or moral relativism. I wrote another 5 pages last night on this subject and I will put it up here when I edit it.

The Principle of Practicality would allow us to escape the absolute morals and social facts that society has placed on us in times of need. When Bagdad fell, rape, crime, and murder went up dramatically. Imagine how hard it would have been to follow the prexisting norms and beliefs in a situation like this and survive. By following what we deem practical, we take some of the freedom and thus responsibility that society has stolen from us. We allow ourselves to live to the solution that suites ourselves best. This is not an excuse to do what feels good, because that would not be practical to do in the real world.
 
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