MS to combine CPU and GPU at 65nm?

[Rangers]

Pretty much totally confirmed now

http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?showtopic=668104



http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h240/Moddage/6c3f98b6.jpg


Guy measured the GPU dies, though apparantly not the CPU die

larger die on the GPU is approx 10.82mm x 10.82mm

smaller die is approx 8.19mm x 8.19mm

Guy also notes the 256MB memory is now internal and no longer a seperate memory card (some might consider this a bit of a downgrade).

However it has NOT been downgraded from 512MB as he claims. I'm not sure why this is such a common misconception, but Arcade 360's have NEVER included 512 MB card, it has always been 256MB.

 

[AlNom]

Compared to Anand's measurements from last year, it would appear that the eDRAM has not changed, but the mother die has been trimmed down slightly. Certainly, the components on the package have changed significantly. The mother die's shrink (~36% reduction compared to the 90nm) leaves a bit much to be desired. It may get better as they improve on the production though. If the eDRAM is truly 65nm, that would be some fairly poor scaling :| ... however, I would sooner believe it is still on 80nm as originally postulated.


Looks like they've got a whole bunch of motherboard revisions with varying component usage:

1) 8x512Mb vs 4x1Gb GDDR3 chips
2) built-in 2Gb flash (I presume Pro/Elite won't get that for awhile if ever)
3) 80nm eDRAM/65nm motherdie...

 

[Rangers]

It's kind of interesting they went with internal flash memory. More interesting than when I first thought about it.

I'm guessing they didn't want people losing memory cards, reselling systems w/o cards, etc, and creating non NXE compatible units.

But I'm expecting a new era of systems with a lot of internal flash memory eventually, (Wii already of course) and this might be a start.

 

[AlNom]

It's kind of interesting they went with internal flash memory. More interesting than when I first thought about it.

I'm guessing they didn't want people losing memory cards, reselling systems w/o cards, etc, and creating non NXE compatible units.

There can be a number of reasons to going internal as you mention (also a single line of production for memory cards for retail i.e. only a 512MB SKU, one less memory card slot taken up, ease-of-setup for the "dumb" user... etc ), but I suspect the main impetus was NXE, ensuring 100% that every arcade user would have it available on the day of purchase and afterward.

At any rate (all that is OT), it is quite clear from the photos that there will be no merging of the CPU and GPU cores for awhile (but we all knew that already). The scaling of the CPU is itself very poor (no change from the Anand photo as far as I can tell i.e. it's 65nm in both photos) @ ~25% reduction when it should be closer to 45% for a full node transition (ideal is 50%, but... ideal). Xenos @ ~34% reduction is a bit better, but it's still not good enough.

At the rate they're moving along, it could be a couple more years yet...

 

[Rangers]

Well it had seemed this had changed into the Jasper hunt thread. It's either that or bump some ancient thread (if you could find it)

 

[Squilliam]

There was some mention of a change in the south bridge chip as well, could that indicate they might transition to having wireless built in from next year? Perhaps just the Elites, or Elites and premium systems and keep that as a way to tempt people up to the more profitable SKUs?

 

[PalmiNio]

Compared to
1) 8x512Mb vs 4x1Gb GDDR3 chips
2) built-in 2Gb flash (I presume Pro/Elite won't get that for awhile if ever)
3) 80nm eDRAM/65nm motherdie...

Hu?

You mean 4x128 = 512? The total GDDR3 is 512mb not 4gb

The built in flash is increased from 16mb to 256mb, not 2gb.........

I'm pretty shure that all models will have the same amount of flash since the production cost would be effected negative with 2 diffrent production lines.

 

[Dave Baumann]

Bits and Bytes...

 

[AzBat]

Hu?

You mean 4x128 = 512? The total GDDR3 is 512mb not 4gb

The built in flash is increased from 16mb to 256mb, not 2gb.........

I'm pretty shure that all models will have the same amount of flash since the production cost would be effected negative with 2 diffrent production lines.

Agreed. I just find it interesting that they went to a combined 256mb flash, instead of keeping the old 16mb NAN and just add 128mb. But if there whole intent was to loose the added cost of a memory card unit on the Arcade SKU, seems like a great move since it will benefit all SKUs going forward. BTW...

Tommy McClain

 

[Megadrive1988]

I still do not believe the CPU and GPU will be combined @ 65nm.

The logicial first step would be to combined the GPU with EDRAM on 65nm or 45nm, in 2009.

Then, combined the GPU+EDRAM chip with the CPU at 45nm or 32nm, in 2010. This could be in a smaller slimmer case.

 

[AzBat]

Personally, I think given the modest gains in reduction in the current Jasper revision, they probably have a few more revisions at 65nm before they can even approach combining silicon or shrinking to 45nm for that matter. I suspect we won't see any of that till 2010.

Tommy McClain

 

[grandmaster]

Is Jasper out and about now in the UK? Could I go into GAME and buy one?

 

[xexuxjy]

don't think so, been looking at the xbox dvd drive site and they have one listing for game in france but thats the closest. probably better waiting another month or so.

 

[grandmaster]

Where is this 'dvd drive site' of which you speak? Does Jasper have a hitherto unseen drive?

 

[xexuxjy]

it's at : http://360drives.com/list?v_board=5&v_perpage=50


(hoping link works )

 

[-tkf-]

Anandtech takes a look at the Jasper:

http://www.anandtech.com/gadgets/showdoc.aspx?i=3472

Hope it´s not an old link.

 

[function]

Anandtech takes a look at the Jasper:

http://www.anandtech.com/gadgets/showdoc.aspx?i=3472

Hope it´s not an old link.

Good find, but I have to say that's not exactly a top class article. The GPU package resin first appeared in Xephyr (not Falcon), the transition to the Falcon wasn't clean cut (in terms of manufacturing dates), and he provides no evidence that Falcon's are as unreliable as he suggests.

The power consumption figures are interesting though. The 360 still has a long way to go before it can be crammed into something as small as a PS2 slimline (unless you wanted to create a miniature leaf blower). Jasper is still drawing more power than the original Xbox, iirc, which itself drew nearly twice as much power as the early US/European PS2s. Even with an external power supply and 45/40 nm chips I can't see it being able to go "slimline".

 

[vanquish]

Does anyone have one? Do they run significantly quieter?

BTW if my 360 got RROD, and I sent it to MS, would they send me back a Jasper, or just fix mine?

 

[Rangers]

Does anyone have one? Do they run significantly quieter?

BTW if my 360 got RROD, and I sent it to MS, would they send me back a Jasper, or just fix mine?

Depends. Sometimes they replace, sometimes they fix. Depends on the problem I guess, though I dont have any suggestions there.

And it seems unlikely to me you'd get a jasper back this soon.

 

[rekator]

Does anyone have one? Do they run significantly quieter?

BTW if my 360 got RROD, and I sent it to MS, would they send me back a Jasper, or just fix mine?

From that we known MS SAV normally got for 360 without HDMI a "Falcon" model, for console with HDMI, so "Falcon" model, the ROD level is low, so probably they got some "Falcon" in stock in SAV, and after switch to "Jasper"…

For the quieter… the DVD drive is the same type so probably got the same noise level.
For the fans, you can expect that they run may be slower but not sure… Need mesure of dB for that.

Personally, I don't think we're seeing a slim model for both the 360 and the PS3 before 2010, 100 watts in 65nm, we can target 80 watts for a full 45nm, to more heat for a slim. And remember that more a die decrease in size, more the heat by mm2 increase so good compromise for a slim model will be probably in 32nm (60 watts), or need other cooling solutions who are to more expensive actually.