Mining vs Gaming Products or something *spawn*

Discussion in 'Graphics and Semiconductor Industry' started by DavidGraham, Mar 10, 2018.

  1. DegustatoR

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    The ability to buy a GPU to play on at it's MSRP will not "hurt gamers" in the slightest, and most of them will prefer this over the current situation where you pretty much have to mine to recoup the insane prices brought onto the market by miners.

    Gamers are very happy with the news in case you've missed that. "Gamers" which you are desribing can go and f themselves for all care.
     
  2. eastmen

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    Someone will make a miner that not only runs the mining code but maybe a small graphics box with some textures and shading to throw off the detection. That would be my guess in the long run if you can't modify the driver or bios
     
  3. manux

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    It should still be possible to detect the memory access pattern of eth mining. Obscurity will not help if detection is done in any kind of half sensible way.
     
  4. eastmen

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    you could be right , it will depend on how sophisticated they go.

    Anyway I was goign to upgrade my old vega in my wifes machine to a 3060 but looks like I will buy another amd card for it. The vega is just running hotter and hotter (it was a launch day) I did re paste it which helped but still
     
  5. manux

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    I think this is mainly a delaying tactic. If the hack comes 6-12months from now eth mining could have busted by then. Meanwhile it would also significantly lessen crypto cards flooding to used card market and causing another crypto hangover on new cards sales. I wouldn't buy cards for mining and assume 6months from now mining is still profitable. Same reason why I don't invest into tesla or crypto. Too risky for my liking. I rather take steady gains than gamble.
     
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  6. eastmen

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    I guess I'm more negative , I think this is just a way to get a PR boost while at the same time reselling old gpus that wouldn't have as much value as gaming cards.
     
  7. manux

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    If you consider what happens after crypto bust when used gpu's hit aftersale market you might think more positively as well. It's not in nvidia's interest to have used market full of mining gpu's and not being able to sell any new gpus. That happened last time. There was many very poor quarters both for nvidia and amd. For nvidia it was even worse as those cheap used pascal cards made turing a real poor buy. I think it's in nvidia's best interest to block crypto on gaming devices. It doesn't hurt nvidia can recycle chips not useful for gaming to crypto products.

    Where I'm negative is that I'm expecting the crypto to go belly up and all those miners selling their gpu's for gamers. If this bust takes 6months,12months or longer I don't know. I just feel it's inevitable that happens and then used market is full of cheap gpu's and new ones are piss poor buy. I think nvidia is predicting it's more than 6months. Otherwise the crypto cards wouldn't make sense.
     
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  8. DegustatoR

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    I wonder how many GPUs unsuitable for other applications but mining they may have accumulated over Turing and Ampere lifetimes. Those with bugs in display controllers, video engines, geometry processing pipes, completely borked tensors and RT cores. Won't be surprised if it's actually a sizeable amount in case of Turing at least.
     
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  9. manux

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    I wonder same. I'm also wondering if these unsuitable chips would mainly happen early in manufacturing before chip production matures. I believe there is constant tweaking to improve yields over lifetime of chip.

    I think nvidia's cross margin over q2,q3 would tell us something. If cross margin goes up that could be because of crypto chips. If cross margin goes back lower after crypto bust that could be confirmation. If we don't see anything happening in gross margin it probably means this was insignificant.
     
  10. eastmen

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    I think its a bit different this time. The current mining craze should last through the year unless eith 1559 changes make it unprofitable. You add that to the fact that ray tracing and dlss and other features don't exist on a lot of the cards that are being used to mine.

    People will pay me $400-$500 for my vega right now but no one is going to pay that when the mining bust ends and I highly doubt anyone will want a vega 56 in the fall of 2021 or in 2022 when you will be able to buy a 3040 card with equal performance and all the new features or whatever amd has at the time. Same goes for the radeon 5x00 series or nvidia 1x00 series.

    The only cards that will hold value are the 2x00 and 3x00 series but those would hold value regardless of the mining craze. Many people sold their 10 and 20 series cards for the 30 series cards. Its the cycle of life for graphics cards.
     
  11. manux

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    It's unlikely next gen is anything but little bit faster current gen. It's all about price/perf at that point. Used crypto card easily wins in that comparison. Little bit faster raster, ray trace and dlss is what I expect from future. I have hard time imagining any features current gen lacks that next gen would bring. Even some turing features like mesh shaders are still not used in games and ray tracing is also only used in few games. Huge flood of used crypto busted cards would push price of used cards very low and making selling anything new very difficult.
     
  12. eastmen

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    Yes but that is true for anything. With next gen consoles out and starting to take advantage of raytracing and mesh shaders and all that gamers in 6 months or a year simply wont want a say radeon 580 or vega 56 or geforce 1060. With the performance of the 20 series they may not want those for heavy raytracing games either.

    The 30 series is so supply limited that regardless of a 30 series refresh or 40 series hitting there wont be a huge glut of 30 series that get dropped by miners to get resold.

    Thats just my view
     
  13. DegustatoR

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    30 series supply is the same as of 20 series.
     
  14. eastmen

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    in current year or historically. 20 series has been selling for what 4 years. There are many times the amount of 20 series out there as there 30 series and will be for a very long time.
     
  15. DegustatoR

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    Both. 30 series will be on the market for about the same time as 20 series was.
     
  16. manux

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    The problem for nvidia/amd is generated by the cards bought purely for crypto flooding used gaming card market after bust happens. This whole issue is avoided by making gaming cards not useful for crypto miners. Provide crypto specific cards for miners. In this scenario crypto miners are left with useless cards they cannot sell to gamers if/when bust happens. In this scenario nvidia/amd wins "double". They sold all the chips they had and the used crypto cards don't come back into gaming market. This avoids inflating used gaming card prices.

    If the crypto cards don't work for gaming they will not come to used gaming card sales market. It's the crypto miners who loose in this scenario if/when bust happens as they bought cards that have no resale value/resale market. Also nvidia/amd wins in this case as the used crypto mining cards are not away from future gaming gpu sales.

    One has to take a long term profit view on this. It's tempting to sell gaming gpu's to miners today but it's away from future profits. Crippling crypto on gaming gpu's is a win when combining it with crypto specific cards not useful for gaming. One can sell different product to both markets while avoiding products from one market flooding the other market in future.
     
    #116 manux, Feb 19, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2021
  17. DegustatoR

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    Saying that they will loose is also a bit of a stretch since they would likely make gobs of profit off these cards already and even in case of ETH price crash nothing stops them from just keep mining - would take more time to earn as much but still it'd be profitable.

    This whole "buh poor miners won't be able to sell the cards later" just reeks really. Who cares, they are making millions right now.
     
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  18. manux

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    I completely agree on this. Anyone buying mining specific cards should factor in resale value of 0 into the equation.
     
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  19. A1xLLcqAgt0qc2RyMz0y

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    Your price for the Vega 56's needs to be updated. They now are being sold on eBay for $600 and up.

    https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fs...H_Sold=1&LH_ItemCondition=1000|1500|2500|3000

    I have seven Vega 56's that I bought in 2018 for $3001 ($428 each) that I used to mine XMR and ETH until the crypto crash. They were paid for by profits made during 2018. You are right that the value of them crashed when mining went bust. I saw that they were only selling for around $150 late last year. Because of those low selling prices I decided to just keep them in case mining took off again.

    And low and behold not only could I now resell them for a profit compared to my original purchase price but I dusted off two rigs and am now again mining ETH on those seven Vega 56's with the MMPOS.EU OS generating 334.7 MH/s while using 1150 watts at the wall. The Nanopool Calculator shows a monthly mining of 0.61627 ETH or $1,221.62 USD. My power cost for the two rigs is around $80 a month.
     
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  20. CarstenS

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    Apparently, there are some other altcoin, where the 3060 does not throttle.
    Here's the video with appropriate time stamp from Crypto Leo, the guy who already confirmed the ETH-throttle to be working on his 3060:


    Some on first glance quite sensible argument from a mining forum: Nvidia could have prevented 3060 to be used in mining rigs, i.e. only one card/GPU per system. That would not hurt gamers much, but make it quite arduous for mining farms. There, only much higher yielding cards would be raking in the moneyz in single-GPU rigs, so the argument goes.
     
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