Microtransactions: the Future of Games? (LootBoxes and Gambling)

[Shifty Geezer]

Except it isn't.

It is, but only when you understand that 'thing' is an indefinite noun that can take different meaning. From one perspective, the one I presented, about the mechanics of accessing content in a game by buying credits, the two games are the same. From another perspective, a different 'thing' to the one I was talking about, the design and presentation of that mechanic, it sounds like F5 is taking a more nickle-and-dime approach whereas GT6 is taking very much an optional-extra approach with no adjustment to the core design from prior GT titles.

For the thing I as talking about, they are doing the same. For the thing you are talking about, they are quite different.

 

[DrJay24]

It is, but only when you understand that 'thing' is an indefinite noun that can take different meaning. From one perspective, the one I presented, about the mechanics of accessing content in a game by buying credits, the two games are the same. From another perspective, a different 'thing' to the one I was talking about, the design and presentation of that mechanic, it sounds like F5 is taking a more nickle-and-dime approach whereas GT6 is taking very much an optional-extra approach with no adjustment to the core design from prior GT titles.

For the thing I as talking about, they are doing the same. For the thing you are talking about, they are quite different.

I see, yes they are both selling credits. Most racers and many other games do this. It is about the presentation, how do they push it that is vastly different.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

For the thing I as talking about, they are doing the same. For the thing you are talking about, they are quite different.

I think people's perceptions are as different as the approaches in F5 and GT6.

One is tantamount to selling cheat codes, and this seems to be more readily accepted, if not liked. Yesterday I bought the AC4 Black Flag 'Time Saver Technology Pack' for £1.49, which saved me several valuable hours of running around finding maps and chests (which isn't my thing) and let me get on will killing and plundering (which is my thing).

The other is perceived to be slowing progression by design unless you pay - whether that was in the intention or not.

 

[Cornsnake]

If GT6 is basically the same as GT5 as far as making progress goes, then I'm ok with it.

I think it's absurd amount of money if you want buy some cars by buying credits with real money. But if some people are willing to it, and if it allows big budget games like this to be made without it costing me anything more, then it's still a win for me in the end.

 

[MfA]

That's short term thinking. Microtransactions provide a perverse incentive to developers and this will have an impact on the kind of people willing to work in the industry, it's just going to get worse.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

That's short term thinking. Microtransactions provide a perverse incentive to developers and this will have an impact on the kind of people willing to work in the industry, it's just going to get worse.

This was the early discussion on this subject before F5 and GT6 were raised as examples. When developers make more money from being buying shortcuts than not, there's a clear incentive to encourage shortcut buying. Going by the descriptions in this thread (regardless if they are accurate or not), F5 represents the most negative sort of shift and the kind of threat the hobby faces. Each iteration of a franchise can add a 15% more 'grind' to unlocks, and slowly acclimatise people more to paid unlocks as standard. One year you don't buy the unlocks, but feel progression is a little slow. The next, you look at the time and feel you'd rather get straight to using the extras, so decide a few quid here and there isn't a convenient compromise. And then it'll just seem second nature to buy more stuff. There are no controls that can be enforced, so it'll be down to developers/publishers to get the balance right. How many really trust them to get a fair, equitable balance?

I've certainly considered some game designs from a developer POV and felt the move should be towards microtransactions at the design level. Come up with a game that'll be fun, and then look how I can add incentives to spend on it in a cheaply implemented way other than more content. And there are discussions at dev-meets that talk exactly about this - how to monetise your app/game.

 

[MfA]

It doesn't matter how you implement it, it's inherently corrupting and will predominantly attract the corruptible.

 

[ERP]

It doesn't matter how you implement it, it's inherently corrupting and will predominantly attract the corruptible.

It's always been about money, that's why advertising spends have risen so dramatically, because you can sell on hype not quality.
The advantage of a model based on micro-transactions, is it only works if someone wants to play your game, so there has to be at least some base value to it. The downside is there will be inevitable pressure to spend to be competitive, which is why you see the push for social/shared experiences because social pressure is a great lever for monetization.
Personally I prefer a multi title service model (monthly charge) with publisher payout based on play time, because I think it is the closest we can get to reward for quality, and you get what you reward.

 

[MfA]

It's always been about money

Well money is the root of all evil, but there are business models which incentivize mutual benefit and there are business models which incentivize preying on the weak.

that's why advertising spends have risen so dramatically, because you can sell on hype not quality.

But the actual developers are relatively isolated from this, it doesn't pervert their incentives.

 

[ERP]

Well money is the roof of all evil, but there are business models which incentivize mutual benefit and there are business models which incentivize preying on the weak.

But the actual developers are relatively isolated from this, it doesn't pervert their incentives.

But it affects their budget, and in fact the talent on a particular team.
My point is if people buy games with large advertising spends over under advertised quality products (which is certainly true) then publishers will spend less of the overall dollars available on the development and more on the advertising.

Publishers will invariably optimize for ROI regardless of the model, there is nothing "corrupting" about that. You just end up with a potentially less desirable result.

I'm not a huge fan of micro transactions, or more specifically free to play, I think it affects game design in the worst possible way. Ideally as a customer you want a model that rewards based on the quality/value of the product because you will get what you reward. Full priced games don't do that either, some sort of subscription service could.

 

[joker454]

No Shifty, GT6 isn't doing remotely the same thing as Forza.

Are you sure? I've played both Forza and GT games, and the grind in past games was always significantly worse in GT. You have to play a GT game far more to unlock cars compared to Forza. Even if they tweaked that on Forza 5 to where it has a longer grind, is it really now worse than GT's grind? I can't imagine it would be, they would have had to make it substantially harder to match that! I know for some people that was part of the appeal on GT that it was much harder to unlock cars whereas in Forza you could unlock them relatively quick which I liked. Maybe you can tell me since I haven't played Forza 5 and I'll assume you have since you seem fairly certain about it, is the grind really that much worse in Forza 5 compared to Forza 4, and is the grind in Forza 5 worse than GT's have been in current and past games? I guess I'm just really confused having played games in both series in the past and while GT did get easier in later games, it was still brutal compared to Forza. Heck it was one of the reasons I always preferred Forza to GT because I know in GT I'd never get to drive most of the cars whereas in Forza I would, because I could never invest the man hours needed in a GT game to unlock the cars I wanted.

 

[Arwin]

Afaik there are no prize cars anymore in Forza, if you buy DLC cars you still also have to buy them in game with credits, the prizes are lower, etc. I agree that you could get cars quite fast in some of the previous Forza games because you basically won one after every event, right? So a big step backwards. In this case I have been going by what I have heard.

I guess I am so into GT that I find my way in there very fast. Prize cars are certainly still in there. I haven't tried F5 yet, but GT6 if anything seems more generous, though some depends on your driving skill. I won five cars now and haven't bought anything but the first one that you have to. Actual drive time clocked 1,4 hours ...

 

[joker454]

Afaik there are no prize cars anymore in Forza, if you buy DLC cars you still also have to buy them in game with credits, the prizes are lower, etc. I agree that you could get cars quite fast in some of the previous Forza games because you basically won one after every event, right? So a big step backwards. In this case I have been going by what I have heard.

I guess I am so into GT that I find my way in there very fast. Prize cars are certainly still in there. I haven't tried F5 yet, but GT6 if anything seems more generous, though some depends on your driving skill. I won five cars now and haven't bought anything but the first one that you have to. Actual drive time clocked 1,4 hours ...

Oh wow, no more prize cars in Forza? That's definitely a big change backward. Back when I played both games GT would award you cars but they were usually terrible cars that I didn't really want. The only way to get the good cars was to play a ton which I could never really do. Forza on the other hand would award you really nice cars relatively quickly. It's a shame that they got rid of that, so the only way to get good cars now is to buy them via dlc? That's kinda crazy, I can see why people would be pissed. Half the fun of Forza was frequently winning really nice cars compared to GT where you would win a Lada, or some 0.8 litre worthless car that I wouldn't even take for free.

 

[ERP]

I would say that cars are more available in Forza 5 than in any GT game I've played, which is everything except 6.

The rate at which the game gives you credits at least in the early going is such that you can easily purchase a car for another series and upgrade it, with the winnings from the one you've just completed.

I guess I haven't played any other Forza games to compare.

 

[Sonic]

I would say that cars are more available in Forza 5 than in any GT game I've played, which is everything except 6.

The rate at which the game gives you credits at least in the early going is such that you can easily purchase a car for another series and upgrade it, with the winnings from the one you've just completed.

I guess I haven't played any other Forza games to compare.

That's my experience with Forza 4. To me there really isn't much of a grind when it comes to Forza 4 and it's extremely easy to get new cars. The cash and extra XP won by turning off all the assists makes it not only easy to purchase new cars, but to have a decent selection of cars to choose from when leveling up. Not sure if this has changed with Forza 5. If the grind takes longer in Forza 5 then I think I will find that preferable to the super fast paced advancing in Forza 4. I doubt I'll purchase a car for real money if it's attainable in the game. If it's a car not available in the game then I will likely buy a few.

I'm interested in your ideas about a subscription based revenue model. Would it entail a general monthly subscription to the console manufacturer who then divy out revenue to pubs/devs based upon whatever metrics are used? Would there be a need for multiple monthly subscriptions per publisher? Will we be able to download games and play them offline without the need for being online? I'm sure there are many game types that would benefit from a subscription based model.

I'm warming to the idea of episodic based content as a way for game creators to get revenue. I'm interested in hearing others opinions if it's a viable alternative to f2p.

 

[Davros]

Once again Jim speaks the truth
(*Bad language*)
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/8524-Fee-to-Pay-and-the-Death-of-Dignity

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I would say that cars are more available in Forza 5 than in any GT game I've played, which is everything except 6.

Interesting perspective. Those who own both consoles, or have at least played both franchises extensively, are less fussed about the grind/reward balance change. I guess if you are used to GT's grind then Forza 5's grind is fine but for those Xbox One owners who have never played Gran Turismo their basis for comparison is often only previous Forza games, where Forza 5 seems a little harsh.

That's my experience with Forza 4. To me there really isn't much of a grind when it comes to Forza 4 and it's extremely easy to get new cars.

I've only ever played a Forza game (Forza 3) for about an about and prior to that I haven't really played a Gran Turismo game in anger since GT2, which is when I got the sim racing game hunger out of my blood.

Would is critical to know, and what we'll never know for sure, is what Microsoft / Turn 10's motivation was when turning up the grind dial. If Forza is chucking cars at you left, right and centre, then perhaps this was done merely to stop the playing burning through the 200 cars available in the stock game, which isn't as insidious than deliberately frustrating players in the hope they'll cough up money.

Whatever it is they have an unfortunate perception problem but it'll be interesting to see where this goes across the industry. What if Ubisoft make Assassin Creed 5's combat are brutally unforgiving as Ninja Gaiden Black unless you buy the mega sword pack for £5. Hmmm.

 

[Davros]

I'm sure they are thinking about it
I remember a speech from the head guy of either ubi or ea about either cod or bf (sorry cant remember which) saying something like
"imagine some one is playing *game* , they run out of bullets and the get a message ,would you like to buy some bullets, its not gouging the player because they are invested in the game"

 

[scooby_dooby]

Oh wow, no more prize cars in Forza? That's definitely a big change backward. Back when I played both games GT would award you cars but they were usually terrible cars that I didn't really want. The only way to get the good cars was to play a ton which I could never really do. Forza on the other hand would award you really nice cars relatively quickly. It's a shame that they got rid of that, so the only way to get good cars now is to buy them via dlc? That's kinda crazy, I can see why people would be pissed. Half the fun of Forza was frequently winning really nice cars compared to GT where you would win a Lada, or some 0.8 litre worthless car that I wouldn't even take for free.

Yep. Now add that to the fact that the car's seem to be about 50% more expensive across the board... and you can see why people would be a bit shocked, especially when they've added 2 permanent UI elements on the Start Race screen, trying to sell you Microtransactions to gain money faster.

It doesn't play out that badly tbh, it's definitely more grindy, but you really need to choose whether you upgrade you existing car, or buy a new one, you often can't do both. Upgrading can take a large amount of your profits, and nice cars are very expensive, so it feels more like you are building a real collection of cars you like. At the same time, the variety of cars you actually get to try, has really plummeted, and that's a shame.

I do feel in general, that I don't have as much buying power as I should, and I'm getting about a 40% boost from harder settings, so that's sapping a small amount of enjoyment from the game for me. Like I don't know if I'll ever get to experience some of the best cars in the game, just because I don't have the time to sink 70+ hrs in Forza, and I'm morally opposed to shelling out more money on a $60 title just to change a variable in memory.

 

[joker454]

Interesting, seems like they are GT-ifying Forza. Maybe people thought Forza was too easy or didn't have enough lasting power so they made it tougher? That's a shame for guys like me that simply don't have 50+ hours to devote to a game anymore (Elder Scrolls excluded) but maybe that's what the market wanted. I do remember people on this forum complaining about how quick you can get the good cars in Forza and how that made it seem more like an arcade game. I thought at the time it was mostly GT guys saying that since they were used to grinding to get cars but maybe it was a more widespread feeling.

Well then it seems like if you are a GT player then the new Forza changes won't be a big deal since you are already used to the grind. If you are new to Forza then it may still feel just fine to you. But if you have played past Forza games then you may be in for a "Wtf?" moment once you see how much more difficult it is to get good cars. All about perspective I guess, that explains the wide ranging opinions on the changes.