Microsoft Xbox One X Scorpio Price Prediction and Reaction

[sebbbi]

You said Pro was not a good buy for 1080p owners - I disagree. Games run at better framerates, they load faster and new games offer supersampling and better effects. And the upgrade cost is reasonable.

I agree that Scorpio offers more reason to upgrade but that's a given as the jump is much bigger (4x vs 2x)...but then that's going to cost a lot more.

400$ for a 2x upgrade vs 500$ for a 4.5x+ upgrade. With Scorpio you pay 25% more but get over twice as big upgrade over the base console model. It makes more sense as an upgrade. I wouldn't buy a 2x PC upgrade either. 4x is much more reasonable. But this is just me. Some people have more money to spend for more frequent smaller hardware upgrades (PC or consoles).

30 fps games are still 30 fps locked on PS4 Pro. There's less fps drops in some games, but most games don't drop that many frames on base PS4 either. If PS4 Pro would have targeted 30 fps -> 60 fps instead of 1080p -> 4K, I would have upgraded immediately. Supersampling is nice, but in current games you can choose either less fps drops or supersampling, not both at the same time. Some games even drop more frames than base PS4 when supersampling is enabled.

I am personally mostly playing Overwatch, and the PS4 Pro version only adds better anisotropic filtering. No supersampling since the game doesn't even support 4K on PS4 Pro. PS4 original is running at 1080p almost 100% of the time (dynamic resolution scaling). A bad example, but an example that plays a big role in my personal opinion about PS4 and PS4 Pro. I have been very happy with PS4 in Overwatch. Frame rate is locked 60 fps and resolution 99% time locked 1080p.

What I am trying to say is that PS4 has been running cross platform games pretty much the way the developer wanted to present them to us at 1080p. Xbox One has required compromises. Now Scorpio allows you to get rid of these compromises. PS4 Pro is obviously also an improvement, but a much smaller improvement at 1080p.

 

[goonergaz]

400$ for a 2x upgrade vs 500$ for a 4.5x+ upgrade. With Scorpio you pay 25% more but get over twice as big upgrade over the base console model. It makes more sense as an upgrade. I wouldn't buy a 2x PC upgrade either. 4x is much more reasonable. But this is just me. Some people have more money to spend for more frequent smaller hardware upgrades (PC or consoles).

30 fps games are still 30 fps locked on PS4 Pro. There's less fps drops in some games, but most games don't drop that many frames on base PS4 either. If PS4 Pro would have targeted 30 fps -> 60 fps instead of 1080p -> 4K, I would have upgraded immediately. Supersampling is nice, but in current games you can choose either less fps drops or supersampling, not both at the same time. Some games even drop more frames than base PS4 when supersampling is enabled.

I am personally mostly playing Overwatch, and the PS4 Pro version only adds better anisotropic filtering. No supersampling since the game doesn't even support 4K on PS4 Pro. PS4 original is running at 1080p almost 100% of the time (dynamic resolution scaling). A bad example, but an example that plays a big role in my personal opinion about PS4 and PS4 Pro. I have been very happy with PS4 in Overwatch. Frame rate is locked 60 fps and resolution 99% time locked 1080p.

What I am trying to say is that PS4 has been running cross platform games pretty much the way the developer wanted to present them to us at 1080p. Xbox One has required compromises. Now Scorpio allows you to get rid of these compromises. PS4 Pro is obviously also an improvement, but a much smaller improvement at 1080p.

The problem is people don't buy based just on power otherwise XBO would have sold no units. Also to upgrade you are not paying the retail price as you have something to sell. As an example (from the UK here) an upgrade to Pro cost around £150 but an upgrade to XBOX will cost £250...£150 to upgrade mid gen is far more reasonable than £250 regardless of the improvements when all it really is are graphical - this isn't a new generation, there are no exclusives...and of course, this all happens a year later into this gen so a year nearer to true next gen.

I don't doubt there will be a large demand at launch, much like XBO, but once the hardcore/diehards have their console sales will drop like a stone without significant changes be that in functionality or price.

 

[Michellstar]

Did anyone noticed how Phill revealed the price almost sotto voce after announced the price-drop for the One S??

 

[Strange]

400$ for a 2x upgrade vs 500$ for a 4.5x+ upgrade. With Scorpio you pay 25% more but get over twice as big upgrade over the base console model. It makes more sense as an upgrade. I wouldn't buy a 2x PC upgrade either. 4x is much more reasonable. But this is just me. Some people have more money to spend for more frequent smaller hardware upgrades (PC or consoles).

30 fps games are still 30 fps locked on PS4 Pro. There's less fps drops in some games, but most games don't drop that many frames on base PS4 either. If PS4 Pro would have targeted 30 fps -> 60 fps instead of 1080p -> 4K, I would have upgraded immediately. Supersampling is nice, but in current games you can choose either less fps drops or supersampling, not both at the same time. Some games even drop more frames than base PS4 when supersampling is enabled.

I am personally mostly playing Overwatch, and the PS4 Pro version only adds better anisotropic filtering. No supersampling since the game doesn't even support 4K on PS4 Pro. PS4 original is running at 1080p almost 100% of the time (dynamic resolution scaling). A bad example, but an example that plays a big role in my personal opinion about PS4 and PS4 Pro. I have been very happy with PS4 in Overwatch. Frame rate is locked 60 fps and resolution 99% time locked 1080p.

What I am trying to say is that PS4 has been running cross platform games pretty much the way the developer wanted to present them to us at 1080p. Xbox One has required compromises. Now Scorpio allows you to get rid of these compromises. PS4 Pro is obviously also an improvement, but a much smaller improvement at 1080p.

The fallacy there is that PS4 started with ~1.4x over the XB1S performance to begin with.
Which in turn only makes the argument that the XB1S is a bad deal instead of arguing that the XB1X a good deal.

 

[Rikimaru]

What I am trying to say is that PS4 has been running cross platform games pretty much the way the developer wanted to present them to us at 1080p. Xbox One has required compromises. Now Scorpio allows you to get rid of these compromises. PS4 Pro is obviously also an improvement, but a much smaller improvement at 1080p.

So base PS4 is a good upgrade option too? 1.5x of Xbo, PS4Pro - 3.2x.

 

[dobwal]

Using the PS4 as a base for performance, if you purchased a PS4 pro at launch then you spent $400 on 2X the Tflops and 25% more bandwidth. If you buy a Scorpio you are spending $500 on 3X the Tflops, 85% more bandwidth, 50% more RAM and all in a package that more akin to a slim form factor.

It's a premium device and comes with a premium price tag. As long as it has wide support, for 4K owners who have the disposal cash and want to play the best console version of third party titles it's a compelling choice.

 

[HBRU]

pro price is just 100 $ over vanilla PS4... ONEX is 300 $ over vanilla OneS... End of story.

 

[sebbbi]

So base PS4 is a good upgrade option too? 1.5x of Xbo, PS4Pro - 3.2x.

If you upgrade from Xbox One -> PS4, you lose your existing game library. No backwards compatibility whatsoever. Need to buy again the cross platform games and can't play the exclusives.

You can't play in same games anymore with your existing Xbox One online friends. Gamerscore, achievements, etc also reset.

Using the PS4 as a base for performance, if you purchased a PS4 pro at launch then you spent $400 on 2X the Tflops and 25% more bandwidth. If you buy a Scorpio you are spending $500 on 3X the Tflops, 85% more bandwidth, 50% more RAM and all in a package that more akin to a slim form factor.

I am not talking about switching from one console brand to another. That's a completely different discussion that depends mostly on how much investment you have on the existing platform. I am talking about existing Xbox One customers upgrading to Scorpio and existing PS4 customers upgrading to PS4 Pro. Of course there will be some customers who decided to switch the brand in mid generation, but that move mostly invalidates the advantages of these mid gen refreshes (full backwards compatibility, can play in same games as your existing friends, can continue with your existing save games, etc).

 

[sebbbi]

pro price is just 100 $ over vanilla PS4... ONEX is 300 $ over vanilla OneS... End of story.

PS4 Pro is 2x faster than PS4. Scorpio is 4x faster than Xbox One. Obviously the price difference of Xbox One vs Scorpio will be larger.

 

[Recop]

Using the PS4 as a base for performance, if you purchased a PS4 pro at launch then you spent $400 on 2X the Tflops and 25% more bandwidth. If you buy a Scorpio you are spending $500 on 3X the Tflops, 85% more bandwidth, 50% more RAM and all in a package that more akin to a slim form factor.

The technical gap between the PS4 and PS4 Pro is much larger than that between the PS4 Pro and the Xbox X.

Basically, you have to pay the same extra cost for a much smaller upgrade.

 

[dobwal]

The technical gap between the PS4 and PS4 Pro is much larger than that between the PS4 Pro and the Xbox X.

Basically, you have to pay the same extra cost for a much smaller upgrade.

Not really. The PS4 Pro sports 2.4 more TFLOPs and 25% more bandwidth over the PS4. Scorpio only sports 1.8 more Tflops than the Pro but 50% more bandwidth and 50% more RAM.

 

[goonergaz]

Using the PS4 as a base for performance, if you purchased a PS4 pro at launch then you spent $100 extra on 2X the Tflops and 25% more bandwidth. If you buy a Scorpio you are spending $200 extra on 3X the Tflops, 85% more bandwidth, 50% more RAM and all in a package that more akin to a slim form factor..

200% extra cost for ~50% extra power

It's a premium device and comes with a premium price tag. As long as it has wide support, for 4K owners who have the disposal cash and want to play the best console version of third party titles it's a compelling choice.

Yep, compelling for a very small market - 4K & XBO owners with disposable income.

I suggest that anyone walking into a store today upselling PS4 to Pro will be much easier than upselling XBOS to XBOX

 

[RDGoodla]

Sony has made price drop every holiday, at least in north America. This holiday we will see a $349 Pro and price gap between Pro and x1x becomes $150 or even more.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

PS4 Pro is 2x faster than PS4. Scorpio is 4x faster than Xbox One. Obviously the price difference of Xbox One vs Scorpio will be larger.

I'm seeing a strange separation between performance and price in this discussion. Everyone raising valid (and rather obvious) points, which don't really make an argument because they aren't comparing with each other. In truth, XBOX offers better reason for XB1 owners to upgrade than PS4 owners have to upgrade to 4Pro because the performance delta is more, but at the same time the cost delta is more which'll discourage upgraders. Value isn't a simple case of performance/price as price gains increasing significance as it increases. eg. choice between a GPU at £20 or one at £40 at four times the power, you go for the latter. Whereas a choice between a £200 GPU and a £400 GPU with four times the power isn't anything like so straightforward as you may not have a spare £200 to blow on a better GPU.

The choice here is 4x faster XB1 at a $400ish price point (factoring in resale of old console), vs 2x performance at a $200ish price point for a completely different platform. There's no way any of us can guess how the console owners will perceive the value propositions of these two independent choices and how that'll relate to long-term sales - power and price considerations in isolation tell us nothing.

 

[Recop]

Not really. The PS4 Pro sports 2.4 more TFLOPs and 25% more bandwidth over the PS4. Scorpio only sports 1.8 more Tflops than the Pro but 50% more bandwidth and 50% more RAM.

Not really ?

PS4/Pro GPU : +128%

Pro/X GPU : +43%

This comparison alone said it all... GPU is by far the most decisive factor in a gaming hardware.

PS4/Pro CPU : +31%

Pro/X CPU : less than 1%

Concerning the bandwidth we have :

218/4,2 = 52Gb/s per TFlops

326/6 = 54Gb/s per TFlops

But this calculation might be too simplistic, i don't know.

Also, it's 33% more for the RAM. Pro = 8 GO GDDR5 + 1GO DDR3

 

[dobwal]

200% extra cost for ~50% extra power



Yep, compelling for a very small market - 4K & XBO owners with disposable income.

I suggest that anyone walking into a store today upselling PS4 to Pro will be much easier than upselling XBOS to XBOX

200%? The XBOX isn't $750 with PS4 being $250 nor is the XBOX at $500 with the PS4 priced at $167.

TFLOP wise, the X works out to $83 a TFLOP. The PS4 Pro would have to retail at $350 to give the same cost per TFLOP. The PS4 would have to retail around $152 to reach similar costs per TFLOP. X has 50% more RAM with 80% more RAM dedicated to the games than on the PS4 and 64% more than on the Pro.

In 2013, $400 bought you a 1.84 Tflop, 176 GBps and 8 GB of RAM. In 2016, $400 bought you 4.2 TFLOP, 218 GBs and 8 GB of RAM. Using a linear rate increase similar to what we see between a PS4 and Pro, $400 in 2017 would warrant something more like a 5 TFLOP, 232 GBps and 8 GB device.

The XBOX maybe pricey at $500 but it's not like it's performance doesn't warranted that price.

 

[RDGoodla]

The mid gen upgrade part is what I have trouble with when relating to the price point.

While the console is powerful in comparison to the competition, it's just as true that it's a few generations behind what's available in consumer land. The CPU is a few generations behind and by the time it comes out, both nvidia and AMD will be a couple of gens ahead on the GPU department also.

If this was a ZEN/Vega part, it'd be more powerful and then you're able to understand the $499 price tag. Expecting a mid gen upgrade to take off at this price point a couple of generations old technology is optimistic at best.

I thought x1x should have been a $399 console with better visual quality for multiplatform games, just like xbox 360.
Then Ms could take back some market share from PlayStation.

Now I really don't understand what Ms wants. Since a $499 console can't really decrease the sales gap significantly, why spending much money for a mid-gen console?

 

[Jay]

The issue about the price point is available market it will speak to.
At $499 people are worried that it will only appeal to an even smaller group of the Xbox hardcore consumer.
Which at launch will be ok.
But they have made the Xbox group smaller, and any consumer that isn't an Xbox consumer smaller still.

They may not be able to drop the price quick enough for it to gain any traction, even as a niche product.
If it came with an elite controller, they could remove it and sell a cheaper bundle later on, much like the removal of the Kinnect.

It's worth $499, it's a halo premium product but it doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's very possible that it could be $100-$150 more expensive when it comes out to it's competition faux or not.

 

[Jay]

Now I really don't understand what Ms wants. Since a $499 console can't really decrease the sales gap significantly, why spending much money for a console?

The 1S is the one they hope will help the sales gap, hence drop in price, bundles, etc.
It will be interesting what people who was holding out for 1X will do now, will they still pick it up, go for a 1S, or 4Pro.
Don't know how large that group of people was, but may actually see an up tick in 1S sales...

 

[Rodéric]

That newish console is soooooooo easy to troll it's hard to resist.