Microsoft Surface tablets

[Silent_Buddha]

They may have stated that, but releasing the Surface Laptop proves it's not 100% true.
The laptop isn't filling any blank space, as there are plenty of 13" subnotebooks with great screens and touchpanels within that price/performance range (e.g. XPS 13 and Spectre X360).
It will be competing with existing premium subnotebooks from day one. It will be directly competing with OEMs.

For the Spectre x360 when you configure them with a similar configuration to as a Surface Pro laptop (Kaby Lake i5, 8 GB of memory, 256 GB SSD which is the lowest base Kaby Lake config for the x360) you end up paying significantly more for the Surface laptop. 1,299.00 USD for the Surface vs 1069.99 for the x360. At the high end (Kaby Lake i7, 16 GB memory, 512 GB SSD) you end up at 2,199.00 USD for the Surface and just 1,479.99 USD for the x360.

Of course you do get a better screen and better build quality for the Surface Laptop, but you also pay a much higher premium for them, especially at the top end.

For Dell's XPS 13, using the same base hardware configuration it comes out to 1,099.99 USD for the low end. Again the Surface does come with a higher quality screen. However, at the top end with the Dell you can actually get a higher resolution screen (3200x1800) than the Surface. But even then, we're only looking at 1,899.99 USD.

I used both HP and Dell's websites to get the most current prices for their machines. If you go to retailers you can often find them cheaper. And if you are a long time Dell customer you are highly likely to get their machines at a lower price than advertised on their website due to coupon incentives.

So, I don't see any contradiction here. As I mentioned for similar base computing hardware with the exception of generally, but not always (As the Dell example), better screens, you pay a significantly higher price premium for the Microsoft Surface line of devices. Microsoft does not want to compete with their OEMs, but they are fine with OEMs copying their designs and offering them at whatever price the OEM wants to price them at. Obviously no one is coping the Surface Laptop (that Alcantara covered keyboard sounds interesting) as it's only just been announced.

Regards,
SB

 

[Arnold Beckenbauer]

Well sort off..All the Streaming movie apps are available on the Windows Store (same for music soon with Spotify). You can still play back any video file you ripped with the OS's video player. They are "simply" locking out non-sandboxed services/apps/process/malware etc.. which is their primary end game IMO and not necessary locking people to their ecosystem.

Not all (Amazon Video Prime, but you can watch AVP movies in the Edge browser).

I miss a true iTunes video app, that uses DXVA for DRM protected movies/series.

 

[Ike Turner]

Not all (Amazon Video Prime, but you can watch AVP movies in the Edge browser).

I miss a true iTunes video app, that uses DXVA for DRM protected movies/series.

Yeah Amazon is on Xbox but not yet in the Windows Store (but as you said you can use the browser).

 

[Scott_Arm]

My point is everyone needs to upgrade to Win 10 Pro, hence Win 10 S is daft. Unless all you run on your notebook is Office 365. I suppose it's okay for people using web-apps too which is perhaps its target audience.

I think Win 10 S is junk, but there are probably a lot of people that would find it totally sufficient. A lot of people really do just use browsers and productivity software. I would never recommend to someone that they use Win 10 S, because it's just very limiting relative to the price of upgrading to Win 10 Pro. If I were buying a laptop that starts at $1500, I'd pay for the software.

 

[Arnold Beckenbauer]

An alternative to the Surface Laptop: https://techtablets.com/cube-i35/

 

[Deleted member 13524]

For the Spectre x360 when you configure them with a similar configuration to as a Surface Pro laptop (Kaby Lake i5, 8 GB of memory, 256 GB SSD which is the lowest base Kaby Lake config for the x360) you end up paying significantly more for the Surface laptop. 1,299.00 USD for the Surface vs 1069.99 for the x360. At the high end (Kaby Lake i7, 16 GB memory, 512 GB SSD) you end up at 2,199.00 USD for the Surface and just 1,479.99 USD for the x360.

Of course you do get a better screen and better build quality for the Surface Laptop, but you also pay a much higher premium for them, especially at the top end.

For Dell's XPS 13, using the same base hardware configuration it comes out to 1,099.99 USD for the low end. Again the Surface does come with a higher quality screen. However, at the top end with the Dell you can actually get a higher resolution screen (3200x1800) than the Surface. But even then, we're only looking at 1,899.99 USD.

I used both HP and Dell's websites to get the most current prices for their machines. If you go to retailers you can often find them cheaper. And if you are a long time Dell customer you are highly likely to get their machines at a lower price than advertised on their website due to coupon incentives.

So, I don't see any contradiction here. As I mentioned for similar base computing hardware with the exception of generally, but not always (As the Dell example), better screens, you pay a significantly higher price premium for the Microsoft Surface line of devices. Microsoft does not want to compete with their OEMs, but they are fine with OEMs copying their designs and offering them at whatever price the OEM wants to price them at. Obviously no one is coping the Surface Laptop (that Alcantara covered keyboard sounds interesting) as it's only just been announced.

Regards,
SB

You see no competition because Microsoft is asking for a price premium over their Surface brand which is known for being a premium brand?
You really don't think a $1300 Surface is competing with a $1070 Spectre, or a $2200 Surface is competing with a $1900 XPS?

 

[wco81]

The real question is how well Win 10 S runs on low-end hardware.

This is targeted at $200 Chromebooks, which typically have Celeron CPUs with 2 or 4 GB of RAM.

I have Win 10 on a 3-year old HP laptop with i5 and 8 GB of RAM but a slow HDD and I would not call it snappy at all.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

The real question is how well Win 10 S runs on low-end hardware.

This is targeted at $200 Chromebooks, which typically have Celeron CPUs with 2 or 4 GB of RAM.

I have Win 10 on a 3-year old HP laptop with i5 and 8 GB of RAM but a slow HDD and I would not call it snappy at all.

I guarantee you this is due to the slow HDD. I doubt Google is letting anyone put a HDD into one of their Chromebook, first because they'd hate the crappy performance and second because they want you to use Google Drive.
I had a chinese windows 8-turned-10 tablet with a Bay Trail Atom, 2GB RAM and 32GB eMMC and the thing was pretty snappy overall.

 

[Arnold Beckenbauer]

The real question is how well Win 10 S runs on low-end hardware.

This is targeted at $200 Chromebooks, which typically have Celeron CPUs with 2 or 4 GB of RAM.

I have Win 10 on a 3-year old HP laptop with i5 and 8 GB of RAM but a slow HDD and I would not call it snappy at all.

Fast enough, and faster with Appolo Lake SoCs.

I got last summer a Medion 2in1 detachable with an x5-8350 and 2 GB RAM (10'' with 1920x1200) after my iPhone 6 felt on the display of my Acer W4-820 with z8740&2GB RAM (8'' and 1280x800) and cracked it. For what it is, it's fast. Only iTunes is a problem, because it's not using DXVA/QuickSync. And I enjoy having such small device with Windows 10 Home. Edge is much faster than Firefox. With 4 GB RAM it should be snappier. I had last year an HP Pavillion x2 12 (12'' and 1920x1280 (3:2), Core m3 and 4 GB RAM and 128 GB SSD): It was fast, but its quality wasn't great, so I gave it back.

 

[BRiT]

The real question is how well Win 10 S runs on low-end hardware.

This is targeted at $200 Chromebooks, which typically have Celeron CPUs with 2 or 4 GB of RAM.

I have Win 10 on a 3-year old HP laptop with i5 and 8 GB of RAM but a slow HDD and I would not call it snappy at all.

Win10 runs great on my i3 530 4GB system even with its ancient OCZ Vertex 120G SSD. That's a 7 year old CPU and the SSD might be just as old too.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

You see no competition because Microsoft is asking for a price premium over their Surface brand which is known for being a premium brand?
You really don't think a $1300 Surface is competing with a $1070 Spectre, or a $2200 Surface is competing with a $1900 XPS?

Nope, when many consumers choose a laptop because it is 50 USD cheaper than another laptop, A 200-300 USD premium is going to make it a non-factor for many buyers that aren't already looking for a premium device.

I've done consulting with thousands of buyers over the years and it isn't uncommon for someone to choose a 999 USD laptop over a 1050-1099 USD laptop even if the 1050 USD laptop offered a better screen or a larger HDD. There's more wriggle room when you get to higher end machines. But even there unless the user is wanting a premium build quality laptop, they'll almost always take the cheaper option if the hardware capabilities are the same. OEM reputation and warranty suppot, of course, was also a factor and thus some chose a higher priced laptop (like Dell being far more attractive back in the early 90's for example, for example).

If they were looking at premium quality laptops in the first place, however, then the MacBook line was generally part of the consideration with many, but not all, opting to buy a MacBook over a lower priced premium PC laptop. This was a combination of image, build quality, and some users being unhappy with Windows. Microsoft has worked to make Windows more appealing to those users with mixed results. The Surface line is an attempt to address the perception that Windows PCs can't come close to matching Apple in build quality or image recognition.

PC OEMs had been trying over the years, but the efforts always came across as half-assed. They'd be comparable in some areas, but then absolutely fail in other areas due to PC OEMs feeling (with reason) that they need to make sure that their laptop was cheaper than an Apple laptop with equivalent computing hardware. Because of that, it was always inevitable they'd have cut corners (either keyboard, or battery, or chassis, or materials, etc.). Little things would completely escape them. Like take for example, how much effort MS has put into just the display hinge on the Surface Laptop. That's to address a complaint from many MacBook users that PC laptops no matter how well built couldn't be opened as easily. Meaning, that you couldn't open the vast majority of PC laptops by leaving the laptop on a table and without holding the laptop down, just open the display by lifting it with one finger. Mind boggling for most PC users that this would be a concern when buying a laptop, but something that many people choosing a MacBook over a PC took very seriously. But for them, it was an easily seen representation of how much better the build quality was for Apple laptops and how much more attention Apple put into designing their laptops.

If MS really wanted to compete with their OEMs and take away sales from their OEMs, they could easily do so with comparably priced machines. That serves no purpose, however. Instead, they'll target those users concerned with premium build quality that often choose a MacBook instead of a PC. There is, of course, going to be collateral damage in that it'll be appealing to PC users who want something like a MacBook but don't want to buy an Apple product. PC OEMs will lose those customers, but it's because they weren't properly addressing those customers in the first place. Of course, nothing prevents them from copying anything Microsoft has done with the Surface Laptop to win those users back, and if they do, Microsoft will be perfectly happy with it. After all, Microsoft only started making PC hardware because their OEMs weren't addressing the needs of certain demographics of users and thus MS was losing out on potential Windows users.

Regards,
SB

 

[eastmen]

The real question is how well Win 10 S runs on low-end hardware.

This is targeted at $200 Chromebooks, which typically have Celeron CPUs with 2 or 4 GB of RAM.

I have Win 10 on a 3-year old HP laptop with i5 and 8 GB of RAM but a slow HDD and I would not call it snappy at all.

I have a dell venue pro 8 inch tablet with a 4 core atom and 2 gigs of ram and its pretty snappy to me for light word and movie / window store games. I am assuming it will run even better on cherry trail with 4 gigs of ram or better cpu / gpu combinations. The dell venue pro is like 4 years old now .

Having worked in schools a $200 cherry trail or better laptop with 4 gigs of ram would be perfect for the students and being able to only run things installed through a store that we control through MS would be icing on the cake. I wouldn't buy this as a normal consumer without upgrading to the full os but for schools windows 10 s is the smart play and will let them compete.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Whooosh. A prime example of how the Surface Laptop isn't attempting to take consumers away from its OEMs outside of those looking for a premium experience (look, feel, polish).

http://www.anandtech.com/show/11323/microsoft-announces-the-surface-laptop

Look at the comments sections where there is almost universal disdain for the device from PC users due to the fact that you can get equivalently equipped OEM laptops for less money.

Now, contrast that to the article at Mashable that I linked previously that was written by a MacBook user.

I'm honestly not sure if this device will succeed or not. Are there enough Windows PC users looking for a premium laptop experience? Is there a significant chunk of MacBook users that would be tempted with a Windows laptop of equivalent quality to a MacBook?

Regards,
SB

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I'm honestly not sure if this device will succeed or not. Are there enough Windows PC users looking for a premium laptop experience? Is there a significant chunk of MacBook users that would be tempted with a Windows laptop of equivalent quality to a MacBook?

These days the answer is always 'yes' when it comes to numbers thanks to global reach. Let's say only one in a thousand people values a product or idea. All (99.9%) of the internet comments and articles will be negative. Well, with 1 billion Windows users out there, that's still a million people interested in this thing. $500 profit margin x 1 million people is $500 million profit.

 

[Gubbi]

It's a premium device, the screen, the keyboard, the build is all top notch.

The pricing is what IRKs me. The entry level 4GB/128GB model is priced reasonably enough, but the 8GB/256GB model should cost $150 more, not $300. The surcharge for Iris Graphics SKUs is ridiculous, Raven Ridge can't come soon enough.

Cheers

 

[Arnold Beckenbauer]

Whooosh. A prime example of how the Surface Laptop isn't attempting to take consumers away from its OEMs outside of those looking for a premium experience (look, feel, polish).

http://www.anandtech.com/show/11323/microsoft-announces-the-surface-laptop

Look at the comments sections where there is almost universal disdain for the device from PC users due to the fact that you can get equivalently equipped OEM laptops for less money.

Now, contrast that to the article at Mashable that I linked previously that was written by a MacBook user.

I'm honestly not sure if this device will succeed or not. Are there enough Windows PC users looking for a premium laptop experience? Is there a significant chunk of MacBook users that would be tempted with a Windows laptop of equivalent quality to a MacBook?

Regards,
SB

Imagine what would happen, when Microsoft starts to sell affordable PCs, 2in1 devices, laptops, tablets... Would you buy a Lenovo or Dell product?

And honestly:
Microsoft's Surface Pro 4 tablets are still the best 12'' tablets.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

SP4 is far from perfect. I'd happily buy an alternative if it functioned better (don't know if such a tablet exists).

 

[Deleted member 13524]

I wouldn't buy this as a normal consumer without upgrading to the full os but for schools windows 10 s is the smart play and will let them compete.

What UWP apps are those schools using nowadays?

 

[eastmen]

What UWP apps are those schools using nowadays?

I don't work there anymore but they still have the same stuff deployed windows 7 with office on it . That is 90% of the work time now. But they used deepfreeze to keep the systems locked down and kids would still install games like quake 3 from thumb sticks. I keep intouch with some of the techs still there.

Windows 10 S would allow them to stop all that and keep it locked down. MS is a big enough company that they can start with the most popular school applicatins and pay to have them wrapped in UWP and work the way down. Windows still makes up a huge portion of school computers out there but chrome books are starting to make major progress. $200 windows laptops will have the same popularity if not more so than chrome books currently have.

 

[zed]

I posted on these forums a year or two ago, about MS trying to do an apple, and whilst yes MS does have a lot of blind devotes, the MS brand still doesnt have the apple cache (?)
eg looking at the top of the line surface laptop (although all the specs arent 100% known, eg CPU) for less cash one can buy a Dell laptop that at least meets or exceeds (screen,connectivity etc) its specs, So why.
I do like the screen ratio though 3:2 even though many others on these forums like eastmen think widescreen is best