Microsoft Surface tablets

[Shifty Geezer]

My understanding is that Surface tablets didn't really come onto their own until SP3.

if rumors are true, a refresh will be announced soon---March???

There's little to dislike about the current SP4 hardware save maybe battery life. It's the software driving the hardware that's the problem, and whatever new SP's are going to have that same issue. I guess an ARM SP5 would be exciting because you stick Android on it...

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Not a tablet, but Microsoft just announced the Surface Laptop with Kaby Lake CPUs.
Once more, Microsoft is taking the first (and probably exclusive) batch of the GT3e 15W Kaby Lake with their Core i7 offering (starting at $1600).


No news on updates to the Surface 2-in-1 models, despite their latest earnings showing a 26% revenue decline from their Surface line.
They claim the decline is due to more competition, but I'd say it's mostly because the Surface Pro 4 is from Q4 2015 so it's 1.5 years old which too much for a supposedly state-of-the-art line of devices.

I'm hopeful that a Q4 release for Surface Pro 5 will mean Raven Ridge APUs in there (it'd fit the roadmaps), though I don't really think Microsoft would be open to risking the media/public backlash from downgrading single-threaded CPU performance between SP4 and SP5, even if it meant 4-5x better GPU performance.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

No news on updates to the Surface 2-in-1 models, despite their latest earnings showing a 26% revenue decline from their Surface line.
They claim the decline is due to more competition, but I'd say it's mostly because the Surface Pro 4 is from Q4 2015 so it's 1.5 years old which too much for a supposedly state-of-the-art line of devices.

I'm hopeful that a Q4 release for Surface Pro 5 will mean Raven Ridge APUs in there (it'd fit the roadmaps), though I don't really think Microsoft would be open to risking the media/public backlash from downgrading single-threaded CPU performance between SP4 and SP5, even if it meant 4-5x better GPU performance.

It's a combination of those 2 factors. I don't think Microsoft is particularly surprised by this as they've encouraged their OEM partners to copy the Surface Pro 4 design as much as they want.

Raven Ridge would certainly be interesting, but it remains to be seen if it will be competitive with Intel's mobile offerings in terms of perf/watt as you lower the power available to the CPU. I certainly wouldn't mind a Surface Pro with a more capable integrated GPU.

Regards,
SB

 

[Deleted member 13524]

It's a combination of those 2 factors. I don't think Microsoft is particularly surprised by this as they've encouraged their OEM partners to copy the Surface Pro 4 design as much as they want.

They're obviously not surprised, but the Surface brand is very profitable, it's still the strongest for windows 2-in-1 devices and is losing steam very fast because of a stagnated product line.
As much as Microsoft wants to please OEMs to keep selling windows licenses, I don't really think they're going to throw away the profits coming from the super popular Surface Pro line.


By the way, the Surface Laptop seems generic as hell IMHO. The $1500 Core i7 model is probably going to be eaten alive by similar $800 notebooks with a GTX 1030 / Polaris 12. What the hell were they thinking and how is this ever going to battle $180-$450 Chromebooks?

 

[Silent_Buddha]

They're obviously not surprised, but the Surface brand is very profitable, it's still the strongest for windows 2-in-1 devices and is losing steam very fast because of a stagnated product line.
As much as Microsoft wants to please OEMs to keep selling windows licenses, I don't really think they're going to throw away the profits coming from the super popular Surface Pro line.

Sure, while they would like to keep growing Surface, they're equally as happy as long as it or machines like it continue to drive Windows adoption in tablet/hybrid devices. So as long as that segment continues to grow, Microsoft continues to profit.

By the way, the Surface Laptop seems generic as hell IMHO. The $1500 Core i7 model is probably going to be eaten alive by similar $800 notebooks with a GTX 1030 / Polaris 12. What the hell were they thinking and how is this ever going to battle $180-$450 Chromebooks?

Microsoft have stated many times in the past that they have no intention of directly competing with their OEMs. What they will do, is introduce devices that feature a high level of polish at a premium price. They aren't competing against their OEMs, they are competing against the image that PCs cannot compete with Apple in terms of design or build quality.

In other words, if looking at pure value of its computing oriented components, Microsoft will always be priced higher than their OEM partners. This is by design. But what they will do is increase the design quality, build quality, materials (magnesium instead of aluminum or plastic for the Surface Pro, for example) and finish of their products.

Microsoft wants the vast majority of PC users to buy from their OEMs as that provides something they could never provide themselves (PC solutions that target everything from budget users to data centers). What they provide is something that their OEMs can't afford to provide (in general) and that is premium devices (featuring average technology, except their displays are gorgeous) targeting a small audience. Their OEMs are then free to copy as much of that as they wish in order to target lower prices at lower quality levels to further increase market penetration.

[edit]
A prime example of the press it's generating. This is what it's designed for, and not for offering a better value than their OEMs.
http://mashable.com/2017/05/02/microsoft-surface-laptop-hands-on/#fOWj.3UK_OqJ

I've been a MacBook user for more than a decade and have never really considered switching back to a Windows PC. The Surface Laptop, however, could be just the machine to lure me back.

Regards,
SB

 

[Ike Turner]

Here are the PC's competing with ChromeBooks: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/edu...0def1881e)(259740)(2542549)(UUwpUdUnU48058)()
The Surface Laptop being announced today is simply an "anomaly". Everything points out to the original May Hardware event being totally reshuffled because the Surface Pro 5 was not ready in time (let's not talk about the "Surface Phone" which was pushed to 2018) while the Laptop was ready to go. MS wasn't going to make an event simply to unveil one piece of hardware especially less that a week before Build. So its assumed that the decision was made to slot it in the Microsoft EDU / Windows 10 S (aka Cloud) event to give that event more PR bling. The counterpart is that they have to claim BS like "Surface Laptop build with Windows 10 S for students" when everybody knows that it is a premium Windows 10 Pro Surface product. Even MS knows this on the down low but won't publically say anything about it...just offer the upgrade to a Pro license for free until Dec 31 2017 (and you know damn well that this will be extended afterwards...).. and the whole thing because a PR mess with people comparing it to ChromeBooks event though MS never said so at all..

 

[Arnold Beckenbauer]

Similar notebooks are heavier (~2kg) and thicker. The price is actually ok, but only one USB-A? No Thunderbolt 3, no cardreader? C'mon Microsoft, this is stupid!

There will be cheap notebooks with Windows 10 S, http://www.windowscentral.com/microsoft-shows-windows-10-s-laptops-acer-hp-dell-and-others

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Sadly it'd be the dumbest purchase you could make. The Windows Store doesn't have anything like the range of apps available. VLC, for example, can't play DVDs if you use the Store version. I also bought a cheap 2016 version of Sketchbook Pro for use on my SP4, instead of the annual subscription to the current version that the Store offers. I doubt Windows 10 is going to encourage developers to release their apps on the Store, unless these devices sell absolutely bonkers numbers. Hopefully (and expectedly) someone will find a way to side-load apps.

I suppose MS could actually give a cut of software sales to the IHVs if there's a manufacturer ID embeded in the device. That'd be a smart move IMO.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Similar notebooks are heavier (~2kg) and thicker. The price is actually ok, but only one USB-A? No Thunderbolt 3, no cardreader? C'mon Microsoft, this is stupid!

There will be cheap notebooks with Windows 10 S, http://www.windowscentral.com/microsoft-shows-windows-10-s-laptops-acer-hp-dell-and-others

Cheap notebooks with a touch screen and pen support? Depending on what your use is, I think this is good value. It competes with the macbooks very well. Touchscreen and pen support put it a step ahead. Only thing I don't like is Windows 10 S. I'd upgrade it to full windows for sure.

 

[Arnold Beckenbauer]

You shall not play DVDs in the school!

It can be a good purchase, you can upgrade Windows 10 S to Pro for $49.

Surface Laptop isn't very expensive, eg Dell XPS 13: http://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/productdetails/xps-13-9360-laptop

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Cheap notebooks with a touch screen and pen support?

What apps are you going to use that pen with? ArtRage? Not on the store. Sketchbook Pro? Only if you pay a subscription. The £5 Sketchbook Pro app on Android is infinitely superior to the cheap 'mobile' version on Windows.

Depending on what your use is, I think this is good value. It competes with the macbooks very well. Touchscreen and pen support put it a step ahead. Only thing I don't like is Windows 10 S. I'd upgrade it to full windows for sure.

All the hardware in the world is worthless if you haven't got the software to use it. I know someone who got an SP4 mostly for art and college stuff, which came with £50 credit on the Store. They haven't bought a single thing because there wasn't anything on the Store.

It can be a good purchase, you can upgrade Windows 10 S to Pro for $49.

If it can run full Win 10, it's worth it. But Win 10 S as a concept is no good. It won't ne any good until the library is up to snuff. MS needs to get devs on board. They really, really need to incentivise the inclusion of best quality apps on the Store.

 

[Ike Turner]

Not having Win32 apps in the Windows Store is clearly a case of "lazy devs" /jk well kind of..because its relatively easy to do:
https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/bridges/desktop

Desktop App Converter
This tool automatically converts your app for you. This tool can be very convenient in cases where your app makes lots of system modifications, or if you have any uncertainty about what your installer does.

The Desktop App Converter also does a few extra things for you. Here's a few of them.

• Automatically register your preview handlers, thumbnail handlers, property handlers, firewall rules, URL flags.
  
  
• Automatically register file type mappings that enable users to group files by using the Kind column in File Explorer.
  
  
• Register your public COM servers.
  
  
• Generate a certificate to that you can use to run your app.
  
  
• Validate your app against Desktop Bridge and Windows Store requirements.

 

[Arnold Beckenbauer]

If it can run full Win 10, it's worth it. But Win 10 S as a concept is no good. It won't ne any good until the library is up to snuff. MS needs to get devs on board. They really, really need to incentivise the inclusion of best quality apps on the Store.

It's a very good concept - for Microsoft and not for us. With Windows 10 S Microsoft doesn't only fight against Chromebooks, but against iPads, too. With Windows 10 S Microsoft locks you out. You want to watch a new movie? Buy it on the Windows Store. You want to play a game? Buy an Xbox. Or play free-to-play games and use in-app purchases.

 

[Ike Turner]

It's a very good concept - for Microsoft and not for us. With Windows 10 S Microsoft doesn't only fight against Chromebooks, but against iPads, too. With Windows 10 S Microsoft locks you out. You want to watch a new movie? Buy it on the Windows Store. You want to play a game? Buy an Xbox. Or play free-to-play games and use in-app purchases.

Well sort off..All the Streaming movie apps are available on the Windows Store (same for music soon with Spotify). You can still play back any video file you ripped with the OS's video player. They are "simply" locking out non-sandboxed services/apps/process/malware etc.. which is their primary end game IMO and not necessary locking people to their ecosystem.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It's a very good concept .

Only if people want to buy it. And why would anyone want to buy it if it doesn't have the software they want/need? One of the reasons Windows Mobile didn't get anywhere was it had a fraction of the apps that iOS and Android had - you literally couldn't get the functionality from the device that you could get elsewhere. How popular is Tizen? Likewise, why did people buy inferior PCs over the vastly more capable and cheaper Amiga? Because Amiga couldn't run Office and didn't ahve anything comparable. All the hardware in the world counts for squat if you don't have the software you want/need. I'd argue that the prime reason to pick iOS over Android is because iOS has a better software library with more professional apps. And why PC remains popular is because it supports all the legacy apps. Imagine Windows 10 launched with none of the old apps working?! Dead.

So yeah, as a concept it's great, but as an actual product to buy and use now, it'll be rubbish until the Store contents are good. How are MS going to address that?

 

[Scott_Arm]

What apps are you going to use that pen with? ArtRage? Not on the store. Sketchbook Pro? Only if you pay a subscription. The £5 Sketchbook Pro app on Android is infinitely superior to the cheap 'mobile' version on Windows.
All the hardware in the world is worthless if you haven't got the software to use it. I know someone who got an SP4 mostly for art and college stuff, which came with £50 credit on the Store. They haven't bought a single thing because there wasn't anything on the Store.
If it can run full Win 10, it's worth it. But Win 10 S as a concept is no good. It won't ne any good until the library is up to snuff. MS needs to get devs on board. They really, really need to incentivise the inclusion of best quality apps on the Store.

So upgrade to Win 10 Pro if that's what you need? Problem solved.

 

[wco81]

Can full Win 10 run well with 4 GB of RAM?

They also announced a bunch of $200 laptops with Win 10 S, to compete against Chromebooks.

 

[Ike Turner]

Can full Win 10 run well with 4 GB of RAM?

They also announced a bunch of $200 laptops with Win 10 S, to compete against Chromebooks.

Yup no problem on either my Surface3 or Surface Pro 3 i5. But the Surface Laptop pricing is ridiculous for the base 4GB & 8GB versions (you can't choose 8GB ram with 128GB SSD..it "forces" you to get the 256GB SSD..)

 

[Shifty Geezer]

So upgrade to Win 10 Pro if that's what you need? Problem solved.

My point is everyone needs to upgrade to Win 10 Pro, hence Win 10 S is daft. Unless all you run on your notebook is Office 365. I suppose it's okay for people using web-apps too which is perhaps its target audience.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Microsoft have stated many times in the past that they have no intention of directly competing with their OEMs.

They may have stated that, but releasing the Surface Laptop proves it's not 100% true.
The laptop isn't filling any blank space, as there are plenty of 13" subnotebooks with great screens and touchpanels within that price/performance range (e.g. XPS 13 and Spectre X360).
It will be competing with existing premium subnotebooks from day one. It will be directly competing with OEMs.