Microsoft moves into chip world with Xbox Next

[Paul]

Paul, that made no sense. what do you mean?

A processor built around 90 nm constraints will not magically be of better raw spec produced to 65, because they took no advantage of 65.

However costs will be better.

I'd add that it's so that they can do more fps with AA, and whatnot to that.

I know. It's all FPS in the end though, FPS with AA, with AF, whatever.

True, BUT what makes you so sure Cell is going to be the better tech?

This is what I have been aruging the entire time. It could have been this easy to begin with.

Sure you did.

No I didn't, here is what you said originally

Lets wait and see how "untouchable" Cell 3D is, yeay?

Cell isn't a GPU, if you want to compare 3D in both systems compare GS3 and the XGPU2.

 

[Gerry]

But if both CPU and GPU aren't built around 65 tech?

If both are built let's say around 90 but MS wants to put them on 65 there is no advantage in terms of performance.

I'm assuming you mean if they aren't designed around 65nm tech when you say 'built'?

Now again, I'm no expert in lithography, perhaps someone like Russ would know better, but I think you're overestimating the complexity of moving a design from 90nm to 65nm (as an example). Sure it involves work, and sure it isn't easy, but I wouldn't have thought we're talking a 'ground up' redesign of the entire chip.

If (and I'm not saying this is likely) IBM produced a 90nm design for a PowerPC-based chip, and Microsoft decided 65nm was an attainable fabrication process for the timescale of their launch, then I'd have thought a redesign would certainly be possible to take this into account without starting all over again.

 

[chaphack]

because I'm not disputing the possible performence of Xbox-next.

maybe that should've been. to illustrate the importence of fab process for any 2 competently implemented architectures, the one with a better fab will yield better performence. (assume a relative vacumm here if you like).

by constraint I only meant 'within the limits of it's design', that is all.

okay, I'm confused. please restate you position on fabbing so I can get a clearer picture.

There is no confusion. Im questioning why Paul, 1) is sooo sure of whats into the X2 and 2) why 65nm lithography, alone, is king of the world

I guess he be waiting for Vince and Pana to bail him out.

heh, by that margin so is th GC

Nope. Xbox > PC than GC.







SERIOUSLY, we need the real tech hardware guys to saya more. We are just going in circles without any real experience.

 

[notAFanB]

There is no confusion. Im questioning why Paul, 1) is sooo sure of whats into the X2 and 2) why 65nm lithography, alone, is king of the world

really, because I'm not. I'm asking you what you think of fabbing in the context that we have been bringing up.

Nope. Xbox > PC than GC.

probably, are you really that surprised?
essenetially however they are the same (although xbox has nifty storage).

 

[Paul]

There is no confusion. Im questioning why Paul, 1) is sooo sure of whats into the X2 and 2) why 65nm lithography, alone, is king of the world

Like there are any surprises Chap

They know from the project birth what process they building things for, it's not the other way around.

Noone ever said it was king of the world you dolt. But SCE using 65 will enable them to have a higher raw spec over a company using 90.

I guess he be waiting for Vince and Pana to bail him out.

I have already won.

Better lithography means higher raw spec. The end, there is nothing you can say to combat this. You can try and bring your design BS into this all you want, but you are wrong.

 

[chaphack]

I'm asking you what you think of fabbing in the context that we have been bringing up.

Like i said, being a no tech guy, smaller probably means better, less heat more stuff and all, but the final in game peformance....hmmMMmMmm...

 

[notAFanB]

I'm asking you what you think of fabbing in the context that we have been bringing up.

Like i said, being a no tech guy, smaller probably means better, less heat more stuff and all, but the final in game peformance....hmmMMmMmm...

I don't dispute that the 'end' implementation is not solely relient on fabbing. however I purposefully left that out so we could focus on what the fabbing process meant with introducing ad hoc comparisons (which throws everyone off).

Better lithography means higher raw spec. The end, there is nothing you can say to combat this.

can you quantify this Paul, and by that I mean do you have an example?

 

[chaphack]

Like there are any surprises Chap

" over a company using 90. "

Noone ever said it was king of the world you dolt

Then you have to mind your language. you previously speak as though Sony is creating some miracles by going 65nm..

I have already won.

Better lithography means higher raw spec. The end, there is nothing you can say to combat this. You can try and bring your design BS into this all you want, but you are wrong.

Won what? The bestest of PR?!
Go play with your raw specs. Your 65nm 1TFLOPS whacaca. Funny when the real guys in the know, have spoken against the likes of FLOPS ratings.

The end, realworld + efficiency >>> raw PR whacac.

 

[Paul]

Better lithography means higher raw spec. The end, there is nothing you can say to combat this.

I should have said more transistors meant higher raw spec. All you have to do is look at the history of MPU's over the last 10 years, as the lithography got better, you can put more logic onto a CPU, meaning better performance.

 

[Paul]

The end, realworld + efficiency >>> raw PR whacac.

Who is talking about realworld performance here? Who has been for the last 3 pages? Certainly not I.

Why do you bring it up? Because it's all you have really. Noone is talking real world numbers here, but rather raw specs.

 

[chaphack]

Who is talking about realworld performance here? Who has been for the last 3 pages? Certainly not I.

Why do you bring it up? Because it's all you have really. Noone is talking real world numbers here, but rather raw specs.

So 66mpps does make you warm and fuzzy.

Why did i bring it up? Because IT MATTERS to maketh good graphics.... :? I rather that GC spec over PS2 66mpps crap thank you.

And no, its not all i have, when there is NOTHING i or you or them, have on X2 and even the PS3....

Way to go on trolling this X2 topic with your raw 65nm yadada.. :? :?

 

[Paul]

How old are you, and this is a serious question. People explain things to do and it goes out the other ear, are you sure you don't have ADD?

For the last damn time, noone is talking real world numbers. But rather RAW SPECIFICATION.

It is all you have, you see; you cannot argue that more logic transistors on a CPU does not equate in higher raw spec.

 

[chaphack]

It is all you have, you see.

You definition of all you have is all so interesting...

STIIL tell me, what does your initial post in this topic, "Tell me Chap, what is a better process; the 65 nm node or the 90/130 and 110.", has anythig to do at hand or whaca point are you trying to push forward?

Going warm and fuzzy over your ass-umed raw "superiority"?



As for the logic and crap, we needa more real hardware dudes to speakth.

 

[London Geezer]

This just keeps getting better and better.............

 

[Paul]

has anythig to do at hand or whaca point are you trying to push forward?

I was curious. MS will be using 65 while Sony 90 for their Cellular based CPU and 110 for their Cell based GPU, you didn't read the press releases?

As for the logic and crap, we needa more real hardware dudes to speakth.

We have two telling you. More logic means a higher raw figure.

There is no need for people to bust out all types of crazy numbers in a reply to tell someone this point is there?

But I do agree with you, nothing Sony can do can compare with the ammount of cash MS has; and this isn't being sarcastic.

Have a nice day Chap, you win

 

[kaching]

What does that supposed to mean?

Like I said, read your posts from this thread out loud to an adult. If you're still confused after their reaction, let me know.

No respect? Baby language...?

Don't play dumb. I already made this observation twice in our first exchange and you didn't deny or challenge it then. You seem quite capable of shifting between two manners of communication, one that is more baby talk with fragmented sentences and cutesy made-up words, and another manner which shows you have very good grasp of grammar and vocabulary. Since your ability to converse in the latter manner demonstrates that your grasp of the English language is not inconsiderable, the question would then be why would you choose to converse at any lesser level? The only reason I can think of is out of condescension/disrepect for your audience. I had hoped you were above such a thing, based on ideals you've previously expressed.

Play peace...?

Your words in the previous thread

So just point out where i went wrong...

What, in terms of the points you are trying to make to Paul and NotAfanB? I don't care. As for how you went wrong with regard to your methods of engagement, that's laid out above.

 

[chaphack]

kaching,

oh, you be meaning my choice of words? well it be easier and quick to type/reply informally(as in this topic). long structured posts tired me.

 

[chaphack]

I was curious. MS will be using 65 while Sony 90 for their Cellular based CPU and 110 for their Cell based GPU, you didn't read the press releases?

So which X2 PR states the 90/110 thingie?

But I do agree with you, nothing Sony can do can compare with the ammount of cash MS has;

Of course you do.
Werent you the one going gaga over how much spending Sony did on Cell, and the thing about how much Sony cares about us.

 

[London Geezer]

for christ's sake, what's with the fighting today???

can't you guys get over each other and DISCUSS THE TOPICS.

today it's been a total "I SAY THIS TO YOU BECAUSE U SAID THIS TO ME!!"

jesus....

(notice how i have not posted anything today, since there were NO discussions actually happening, apart from flaming contests, and i always post cuz i'm always online....)

 

[Gerry]

for christ's sake, what's with the fighting today???

can't you guys get over each other and DISCUSS THE TOPICS.

today it's been a total "I SAY THIS TO YOU BECAUSE U SAID THIS TO ME!!"

jesus....

(notice how i have not posted anything today, since there were NO discussions actually happening, apart from flaming contests, and i always post cuz i'm always online....)

It does seem to be a bit of a struggle.

Which makes we wonder why I'm bothering to post.