Microsoft acquires ZeniMax Media (Bethesda, id Software, Arkane + 5 more) [2020-09-21, 2021-03-09]

[Eolirin]

@Silent_Buddha quoting quotes quickly falls apart so a non-quote response. How does the Sherman Act apply? Apple is selling a bunch of devices to a very small number of people in the mobile market. The issue here is not that Apple is seeking to establish a monopoly, or even control the market, but that Epic (and others) do not want to pay Apple (and Google) a 30% cut for transactions. Nor does Apple's position restrain competition in the market because Apple's customer base is tiny and the market is massive. I would agree that from a devs position, it should be much easier to asset pressure on Apple but withdrawing App support, driving Apple customers to other platforms.

Remember Google also take a 30% cut on transactions made through their payment system and Android has what is much closer to (but not legally) a market monopoly. Not wanting to pay something is not a basis for convincing a jury that an act is anti-competitive. I don't like paying as much as I do for gym membership but it's not anti-competitive. If I start selling cars and Bob down the road sells them cheaper that's not inherently anti-competitive. To apply anti-competitive behaviour there has to be a specific, and citable, breach of one of the provisions of the three Acts.

But fundamentally, if Apple were abusing anti-competition law, it would be the FTC to investigate and prosecute, not Epic. Epic are filing a civil suit. If they genuinely Appel was in a position of use of anti-competitive behaviour they would file complaints with the FTC and EU and have the Government Regulators force Apple to change.

What it's worth, I think taking 30% on the value of transactions is absolutely outrageously, whether it's iOS, Android, PSN or Live transactions. A 30% cut of the value of what could be years of work and tens of millions of man hours, just for processing a payment? WTF.

Apple has already been successfully prosecuted under the Sherman Act for antitrust behavior despite not having a monopoly on devices. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Apple_Inc.

And the EU has opened two antitrust investigations into Apple despite them having even smaller market share than in the US. https://www.engadget.com/apple-pay-app-store-eu-antitrust-investigation-launch-112808905.html

 

[Betanumerical]

Apple has already been successfully prosecuted under the Sherman Act for antitrust behavior despite not having a monopoly on devices. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Apple_Inc.

It looks like Apple may not have had a monopoly in that case but they where prosecuted as part of a group that did have a monopoly.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Is that the case? As far as I know it's very common for there to be civil suits from private plaintiffs accusing the defendant of anti-trust violations? There's even a recent supreme court ruling specifically against Apple allowing a civil class action against Apple for anti-trust violations with respect to the app store. Regardless of the viewpoints of this particular case I'm not seeing how anti-trust violations are purely in the purview of the government as there is plenty precedent saying otherwise?

Civil trials can be held over anything, whether there is a basis in law or not but the way a trial if brought and the type of court it is heard in, is important. Anti-trust legislation in the US is Federal law and presided over by the FTC. They are the arbiters of official investigations and prosecutions if they assess a party has breached the law. In the US it's highly common for civil suits to be predicated on federal law but I'd say that's more reflective of the litigious nature of business in the US.

Again, I'm not getting into whether they are or are not violating anything. All I'm stating is that they aren't immune from anti-trust (monopolistic, anti-consumer or anti-competitive behavior) prosecution.

Not a prosecution, a civil filing. Prosecutions are bought by law enforcement, State and Federal authorities.

If I were to hypothesize. If someone could make a compelling case they could argue that while Apple devices don't hold a majority of the market (they are close to doing so in the US) they do hold a virtual Oligopoly with Google. Of course, Google doesn't control all Android environments so there are alternative storefronts on those devices.

And if Apple and Google were to conspire, that would be grounds for investigation. But the 30% cut that many digital platforms charge is a lazy adoption of the brick and mortar retailer charge.

But if further focus on the Apple app ecosystem versus the Android app ecosystem (with the various storefronts), going by some data on the internet it's evident that Apple pulls in significantly more app revenue than all of the Android app storefronts.

Yes, but you presumably don't wish to punish a business for being successful? That just sounds un-American.

In such a position WRT to mobile app developers, Apple could potentially be seen as holding monopoly or near monopolistic influence/power over app. developers. It doesn't matter that they are in that position because consumer choose to spend more money on iOS than they do on Android. Just like it didn't matter that Microsoft held monopolistic power because people chose to use Windows PCs over other computing devices.

Again, this is focusing in Apple's weirdly successful business model. Just because this is the case isn't a reason to punish Apple. Apple have a relatively small customer base of high-paying customers much like any premium brand or company in pretty much every sector of society and business: property, food, cars, electronics and clothing. What is important is that Apple did this fairly, which presumably they did.

The solution for apps developers is also easy. Fuck Apple, drop them like a stone and go Android-only. A lot of Apple customers would leave Apple is the top 20 service apps on iOS disappeared, i.e. Facebook, Amazon, Spotify, Netflix, Google etc. There are many other places to go for alternatives to Apple devices.

Apple has already been successfully prosecuted under the Sherman Act for antitrust behavior despite not having a monopoly on devices. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Apple_Inc.

And the EU has opened two antitrust investigations into Apple despite them having even smaller market share than in the US. https://www.engadget.com/apple-pay-app-store-eu-antitrust-investigation-launch-112808905.html

The ebook case was a conspiracy between Apple and publishers, which did represent a monopoly. Very different. And the EU undertake many anti-trust investigations, they are mandated by EU legislation to investigation whether there is a sufficient number of complaints. The majority of investigations go no further than investigations, many don't even warrant a published reports.

 

[zed]

he solution for apps developers is also easy.

Easy!!!!!
They just need nearly all the major app developers to agree to do something, and leave money on the table now for 'maybe' some more money later

Mate we cant even get ppl to to agree if it the world is round

 

[Tkumpathenurple]

Mate we cant even get ppl to to agree if it the world is round

How round are we talking?

Spoiler

I believe the world is an oblate spheroid, and there ain't none o' yer fancy perfectly round Earth nonsense that could convince me otherwise...

 

[cheapchips]

On this week's Crate and Crowbar they classified MS's pre-Zenimax purchases as mainly small mid-tier studios and Bethesda as the biggest mid-tier studio. Rather than going the premium Sony route they've doubled down on mid tier.

They weren't slagging off Bethesda. It's just that thing of their games being a trade off between the good stuff and a massive amount of jankiness.

 

[zed]

How round are we talking?

Spoiler

I believe the world is an oblate spheroid, and there ain't none o' yer fancy perfectly round Earth nonsense that could convince me otherwise...

I don’t think there is a perfect spherical thing in the universe, iirc some diamond thing recently dicsovered (look up later)
If you wanna go pedantic it’s not even an oblate spheroid, Due to mountains

Edit ok there is nothing to do with diamonds, I misremembered,
https://www.sciencealert.com/scient...the-most-perfect-sphere-in-the-known-universe

between the equatorial and polar radii of the star is only 3 km - "a number that is astonishing small compared to the star's mean radius of 1.5 million km; which means that the gas sphere is astonishingly round", they report.

3/1500000 doesn’t seem that round, I’m surprised they can’t do better in a lab

 

[Malo]

They weren't slagging off Bethesda. It's just that thing of their games being a trade off between the good stuff and a massive amount of jankiness.

Lol that certainly describes Bethesda games well.

So for example something like the horrible legacy of Gamebryo, given Bethesda's propensity for building on crap, will Microsoft invest in massive overhauls or ensure cheapest development path to start recouping this overpriced studio purchase?

 

[dobwal]

It looks like Apple may not have had a monopoly in that case but they where prosecuted as part of a group that did have a monopoly.

No. The big 6 pubs only had 48% of the market at the time.

LOL. In fact, these pubs and Apple got in trouble for basically trying to strong arm a monopoly. Amazon sold 90% of all ebooks but used their market position to force pubs to sell books at prices the pubs deemed too low.

You don’t need a monopoly to get hit with an antitrust suit. The gov’t just need to show that a company is negatively affecting the overall market. Thereby harming consumers as a whole in the process.

 

[AzBat]

Spoiler

I believe the world is an oblate spheroid, and there ain't none o' yer fancy perfectly round Earth nonsense that could convince me otherwise...

Spoiler

WGS84 right? But what geoid model are you using EGM2008? Been a while since I have done any GPS land surveying.

Tommy McClain

 

[Nesh]

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...iciaries-of-microsofts-acquisition-of-zenimax

"If the strategy works, it will be a brilliant counter-move against Sony. Users from around the world will be the ultimate beneficiaries of this deal. I wish them well."

Corporate bs and an oxymoron

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Easy!!!!! They just need nearly all the major app developers to agree to do something, and leave money on the table now for 'maybe' some more money later

I said it was easy (and it is), I didn't say it was without risk or consequence.

 

[milk]

MS just aquired bethesda so they can use gamebryo for halo infinite.

 

[snarfbot]

ugh

 

[eastmen]

Lol that certainly describes Bethesda games well.

So for example something like the horrible legacy of Gamebryo, given Bethesda's propensity for building on crap, will Microsoft invest in massive overhauls or ensure cheapest development path to start recouping this overpriced studio purchase?

Well MS has Inxile , Obsidian , Playground and now zenimax

Between them we have Bards Tale series , Torment , Wasteland , Avowed , Outer worlds , Fable , Fallout , Elder Scrolls , Starfield , Arkane studios new mmo , Elder Scrolls online.

If I was MS my long term goal would be to get them all on a single engine so they can all share content like textures and models. This is a huge mount of RPG type content 11 titles and you don't agree with the 2.5D like Torment and wasteland its still 9 titles

 

[cheapchips]

Arkane studios new mmo

???

They are hiring for a UE4 engine programmer with online / live service experience. I'd kind of hope it's a resurrection of The Crossing. Deathloop seems to have borrowed some of those ideas though.

Curious engine switch for them. They've been on Id tech/Source previously.

 

[Jubei]

Well MS has Inxile , Obsidian , Playground and now zenimax

Between them we have Bards Tale series , Torment , Wasteland , Avowed , Outer worlds , Fable , Fallout , Elder Scrolls , Starfield , Arkane studios new mmo , Elder Scrolls online.

If I was MS my long term goal would be to get them all on a single engine so they can all share content like textures and models. This is a huge mount of RPG type content 11 titles and you don't agree with the 2.5D like Torment and wasteland its still 9 titles

Dear god no! Look at EA as an example for what happens when you try to use the same engine for competely different games

 

[eastmen]

???

They are hiring for a UE4 engine programmer with online / live service experience. I'd kind of hope it's a resurrection of The Crossing. Deathloop seems to have borrowed some of those ideas though.

Curious engine switch for them. They've been on Id tech/Source previously.

sorry wrong team

https://twitter.com/x/status/1312522266526113793

Dear god no! Look at EA as an example for what happens when you try to use the same engine for competely different games

I think using the same engine for the same genre is not a large issue. How many different types of games are on unreal engine ? What are the issues there ?

 

[Deleted member 7537]

They do have some tech wizards at Bethesda, expecting it to look spectacular.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I think using the same engine for the same genre is not a large issue. How many different types of games are on unreal engine ? What are the issues there ?

I think he is talking about DICE and Anthem and the Anthem team getting told they need to develop using DICE and they didn't like it and that it was part of the mess that they had.