Make educated guess of DurangOrbis die sizes, tdps, and costs based on VGLeaks

[anexanhume]

I thought the esram would also cost quite a bit.

More NRE, lower yield (fewer chips per wafer, bigger die more susceptible to normal defect distribution). Those will add 5's or 10's of dollars per console over its life. Nothing like 8GB of GDDR5, which will likely be $100 more than 8GB of DDR3 in durango per console.

 

[AlphaWolf]

I thought the esram would also cost quite a bit.

eSRAM just costs die space. Silicon probably will be less than $100 for the whole APU, depending on yields.

 

[temesgen]

I think its a bit premature to say which platform will cost more and even the rumors about used games should be viewed in the context of the larger business model.

MS has shown with each new console a well thought out approach that builds on what they learned the last time and likewise Sony appears to be finally collaborating with 3rd parties this time which suggest that both companies will have platforms that address some of inconveniences of the last generation both for consumers and their business partners.

 

[Strange]

Coming back to the main tipic

In terms of die size, I'm fully expecting both consoles to come to around 260mm²~300mm².

For PS4

we're looking at 7870~7850 level sizes for the GPU, estimated to be around 212mm² for 20 CUs.

According to

Two Jaguar clusters amount to at least 53mm².

Add that up we'd come to a conclusion of at least 53mm²+212mm²=265mm².




For Durango

we're expecting 12 CUs, so we would expect something in between 7770 and 7850

Relative die sizes are 123mm² and 212mm², but 123mm² only accounts for 10 CUs, so realistically 12 CUs would be at least around 140~150mm²

Most approximations put 32MB eSRAM at around 60mm²

CPU is the same as Orbis, so also around 53mm²

Add all three up we end up with 145mm²+60mm²+53mm²=258mm²

I think it's probably not too far fetched to say that in the end both chips will not only have similar die area but in fact may well have the same dimensions to make the fab process simple.

 

[DrJay24]

What about the "move" engines, they must take space on the die.

 

[Esrever]

eSRAM looks highly unlikely. If it does have it, it wouldn't be economical to have everything in 1 chip. So we could see a ~160mm^2 eSRAM chip + northbridge and a ~160mm^2 GPU/CPU which would be very inefficient but would make the chip more manageable for production. >300mm^2 chips are very bad for yields and would put the chip at tahiti size thus cost a lot to make.

With dram we can look at a single SoC at about 260mm^2 which is still big but smaller than the PS4 chip.

Im thinking that the ps4 chip to be about 300mm^2. 60mm^2 cpu + 140mm^2 gpu sounds about right. With the remainder in busses and ect. this chip is massive and I think would be pushing what acceptable yields can be on an APU.

I would imagine both consoles to have chips of about 120W TPD. 25W cpu and 100W gpu seems reasonable, maybe a bit higher for the gpu.

 

[AlphaWolf]

eSRAM looks highly unlikely. If it does have it, it wouldn't be economical to have everything in 1 chip. So we could see a ~160mm^2 eSRAM chip + northbridge and a ~160mm^2 GPU/CPU which would be very inefficient but would make the chip more manageable for production. >300mm^2 chips are very bad for yields and would put the chip at tahiti size thus cost a lot to make.

Where do you come up with 160mm2 for eSRAM? It won't be anywhere near that. Even at gpu density 32MB would be under 120mm2 and SRAM is much more dense.

Im thinking that the ps4 chip to be about 300mm^2. 60mm^2 cpu + 140mm^2 gpu sounds about right. With the remainder in busses and ect. this chip is massive and I think would be pushing what acceptable yields can be on an APU.

I would imagine both consoles to have chips of about 120W TPD. 25W cpu and 100W gpu seems reasonable, maybe a bit higher for the gpu.

I don't see any chance of squeezing the ps4 gpu into 140mm2. Pitcairn is 212. There's no way they've stripped out 72mm2 with added features.

 

[anexanhume]

Coming back to the main tipic

In terms of die size, I'm fully expecting both consoles to come to around 260mm²~300mm².

For PS4

we're looking at 7870~7850 level sizes for the GPU, estimated to be around 212mm² for 20 CUs.

According to

Two Jaguar clusters amount to at least 53mm².

Add that up we'd come to a conclusion of at least 53mm²+212mm²=265mm².

For Durango

we're expecting 12 CUs, so we would expect something in between 7770 and 7850

Relative die sizes are 123mm² and 212mm², but 123mm² only accounts for 10 CUs, so realistically 12 CUs would be at least around 140~150mm²

Most approximations put 32MB eSRAM at around 60mm²

CPU is the same as Orbis, so also around 53mm²

Add all three up we end up with 145mm²+60mm²+53mm²=258mm²

I think it's probably not too far fetched to say that in the end both chips will not only have similar die area but in fact may well have the same dimensions to make the fab process simple.

Don't forget encoding/decoding, decompression, dsp, and DCE hardware that all seems to be on die too. PS4 APU may be in the 300 to 350 range. The good thing is I'll be chipworks will get on these APUs rather quickly and give us the details.

 

[Esrever]

Where do you come up with 160mm2 for eSRAM? It won't be anywhere near that. Even at gpu density 32MB would be under 120mm2 and SRAM is much more dense.



I don't see any chance of squeezing the ps4 gpu into 140mm2. Pitcairn is 212. There's no way they've stripped out 72mm2 with added features.

160 is esram + northbridge + move engines. I really doubt the esram can be packed tighter than 80mm^2 which would be a low bound estimate.

Pitcairn has much more things in it than just the GPU, the memory controller would be 60mm^2 by itself one would assume. This would be shared by the CPU and is part of that 100mm^2 piece in the extras.

 

[liolio]

Stop assuming and search for the die shot of Pitcairn and Cap verde for the GPU.

 

[Strange]

Stop assuming and search for the die shot of Pitcairn and Cap verde for the GPU.

Here, too bad the Tahiti scale is obviously off by about 20~30%. [strike] Not to mention the shots themselves look like shit. [/strike]

 

[liolio]

Here

Well thanks though I was not asking for somebody to search those shots for me I know I can find those shots anytime at Anandtech without much trouble.
It was just for him to realize that the memory controller + northbridge and what not are unlikely to take ~80mm^2 of silicon. Looking at existing APu should help too.

 

[Strange]

Well thanks though I was not asking for somebody to search those shots for me I know I can find those shots anytime at Anandtech without much trouble.
It was just for him to realize that the memory controller + northbridge and what not are unlikely to take ~80mm^2 of silicon. Looking at existing APu should help too.

Ah,

 

[Esrever]

I never knew they released pitcairn as a die shot. I was basing it off tahiti which has a massive memory controller. Even if it cut it down to 2/3 the size for a 256 bit bus, it is more than 2x the size of pitcairn which is strange to me.

On llano the 128 bit ddr3 controller is 20mm^2, other various io and buses are about the same size.

140mm^2 might be a bit low but if you look at cape verde, without the memory controller, the die is 100mm^2 and if you add 8 more CUs you'd get about 150mm^2. Seems like a reasonable guess.

 

[dobwal]

Coming back to the main tipic

In terms of die size, I'm fully expecting both consoles to come to around 260mm²~300mm².

For PS4

we're looking at 7870~7850 level sizes for the GPU, estimated to be around 212mm² for 20 CUs.

According to

Two Jaguar clusters amount to at least 53mm².

Add that up we'd come to a conclusion of at least 53mm²+212mm²=265mm².




For Durango

we're expecting 12 CUs, so we would expect something in between 7770 and 7850

Relative die sizes are 123mm² and 212mm², but 123mm² only accounts for 10 CUs, so realistically 12 CUs would be at least around 140~150mm²

Most approximations put 32MB eSRAM at around 60mm²

CPU is the same as Orbis, so also around 53mm²

Add all three up we end up with 145mm²+60mm²+53mm²=258mm²

I think it's probably not too far fetched to say that in the end both chips will not only have similar die area but in fact may well have the same dimensions to make the fab process simple.

I think you are being a little generous. Trinity modules were only ~19.3 mm. Two modules and 384 Radeon cores produced apu silicon which was over 200 mm2 at 32 nm. Items like the northbridge, PCI-E, DDR3 Controllers and others aren't insignificant in terms of their contribution to the size of the die.

 

[MrFox]

If Sony was supposed to use Piledriver and switched to Jaguar, does it automatically mean they also switched from SOI to bulk?

 

[anexanhume]

If Sony was supposed to use Piledriver and switched to Jaguar, does it automatically mean they also switched from SOI to bulk?

That would be a huge change. They would have to re-validate GCN on a SOI process to do so. I wonder if it was ever Piledriver.

However, I'm still holding onto the remote possibility either one is using FD-SOI.

 

[dagamer]

Will it be cheaper though? Sure 8GB of GDDR5 memory cost alot, but I'm sure Sony won't have Kinect 2 type of camera built in system so price could actually be very very close.

With the DualShock 4 including a light sensor bar, it's logical to assume that the PSEye will be included in every box. Plus, Sony wants to avoid the situation where developers assume that the Kinect exists by default on the 720 but not on the PS4.

 

[dumbo11]

With the DualShock 4 including a light sensor bar, it's logical to assume that the PSEye will be included in every box. Plus, Sony wants to avoid the situation where developers assume that the Kinect exists by default on the 720 but not on the PS4.

PSEyeEye is 2 "cameras" + N microphones in a box.
Kinect2 is a "camera", a high-res B/W sensor with IR filter, a calibrated light source, IP licensing, N microphones, and (in all likelihood) a primesense processor and associated electronics.

Unless there's something very strange we haven't heard... the production costs will be very different.

 

[eastmen]

PSEyeEye is 2 "cameras" + N microphones in a box.
Kinect2 is a "camera", a high-res B/W sensor with IR filter, a calibrated light source, IP licensing, N microphones, and (in all likelihood) a primesense processor and associated electronics.

Unless there's something very strange we haven't heard... the production costs will be very different.

the ps4 controller will also add more to the cost of the controller itself.

I'm also wondering if sony will bundle in the move controller.