Make educated guess of DurangOrbis die sizes, tdps, and costs based on VGLeaks

[DrJay24]

The aspect ratio for that DDR chip does not look like 3:4, it looks closer to 1:2, which is closer to 9:14. One of you is using 9:12 and the other 9:14, which is the difference in area. Based on my pixel count and using 9:14 which looks closer to the actual pic, that gets me 414mm^2.

Without the real size of the DDR chip, it is a error prone calculation.

Edit: spec sheet

http://www.micron.com/parts/dram/ddr3-sdram/mt41j256m16ha-093

They say several sizes, up to 10mmx14mm, which is the "96-ball" x16 Rev D, with Rev E being 9x14mm.

I'm guessing the Rev E is the latest for PC-2133 4Gb chips, which is 9x14mm, so this thing is over 400mm^2?

 

[msxyz]

The aspect ratio for that DDR chip does not look like 3:4, it looks closer to 1:2, which is closer to 9:14. One of you is using 9:12 and the other 9:14, which is the difference in area. Based on my pixel count and using 9:14 which looks closer to the actual pic, that gets me 414mm^2.

Without the real size of the DDR chip, it is a error prone calculation.

Edit: spec sheet

http://www.micron.com/parts/dram/ddr3-sdram/mt41j256m16ha-093

They say several sizes, up to 10mmx14mm, which is the "96-ball" x16 Rev D, with Rev E being 9x14mm.

I'm guessing the Rev E is the latest for PC-2133 4Gb chips, which is 9x14mm, so this thing is over 400mm^2?

I used 9x14mm BGA package because, as you pointed out, the proportions ruled out the more compact 9x12.

I did a quick and dirty 'Photochop' to cover the die with multiple copies of the ram chip at its left. The photo was taken at a angle so, by no means, the proportions are 100% correct.

I think about 400 sq. mm is about the right area for the Xbox One APU.

 

[Gubbi]

I think about 400 sq. mm is about the right area for the Xbox One APU.

I agree, if the memory packages are 9x14, 126mm², the APU is 380-400mm² (3.03 x DRAM package size)

Cheers

 

[Rangers]

I agree, if the memory packages are 9x14, 126mm², the APU is 380-400mm² (3.03 x DRAM package size)

Cheers

If so, that implies a tremendous amount for the ESRAM, unless I miss something. Maybe near half the chip. Of course I'm not putting full stock in such early measurements though.

Overall 380-400 isn't too bad I guess.

Would be interesting again to see what the PS4 SOC weighs in at.

HD 7970 is said to be 389mm^2 for a comparison point, and GeForce Titan is 551mm^2 I believe! So it's not completely horrible I suppose.

It may hurt them early on, but once they get rolling, I still bet fabbing the SOC will eventually be a doddle, whereas the DDR3 memory savings will never go away.

 

[Arwin]

If so, that implies a tremendous amount for the ESRAM, unless I miss something. Maybe near half the chip. Of course I'm not putting full stock in such early measurements though.

Overall 380-400 isn't too bad I guess.

Would be interesting again to see what the PS4 SOC weighs in at.

HD 7970 is said to be 389mm^2 for a comparison point, and GeForce Titan is 551mm^2 I believe! So it's not completely horrible I suppose.

It may hurt them early on, but once they get rolling, I still bet fabbing the SOC will eventually be a doddle, whereas the DDR3 memory savings will never go away.

Didn't we already have hard numbers that the ESRAM was about 1.6 of the 5 billion or so transistors?

 

[Rangers]

Didn't we already have hard numbers that the ESRAM was about 1.6 of the 5 billion or so transistors?

yes but there was discussion that it might be so dense it might not take up that much die area.

and i guess those "hard numbers" were estimates too. not anything provided by microsoft or anything, but they make sense in a 5 billion transistors context.

I think at times 60mm^2 was bandied around.

i hesitate to conclude a lot just yet but it seems like a lot more.

again since we dont know what the esram free soc would look like (though we do know bonaire=160mm etc), getting a measurement on the ps4 soc will be key.

i wonder if SHAPE audio block is in the SOC too?

On another note, E3 is really nearing now. Major Nelson is making noise about it this morning on twitter.

 

[Xbat]

looks like prolite was sort of right with is 400mm2 prediction for durango.

 

[warb]

Is there any reason to expect the PS4, or Durango to be loud, big, and hot consoles?

I.e. launch 360s and ps3s.

From what I understand, heat and noise is not necessary related to TDP. If you have a lot of silicon concentrated at one spot like an APU / SOC, it can be harder to cool than the traditional separate setup.

Looking at the X1 setup, I wouldnt expect it to be louder than the 360 slim -the DVD drive.

 

[artist]

Has anyone measured the APU size from the Wired photo? Sorry, my search skills suck.

 

[Rangers]

Has anyone measured the APU size from the Wired photo? Sorry, my search skills suck.

Yeah. Seen estimates from like 380mm^2 up to even one on GAF over 500mm^2. 420mm^2 seems about right.

The picture is tilted so I'm not sure how accurate they are.

 

[Orion]

Yeah. Seen estimates from like 380mm^2 up to even one on GAF over 500mm^2. 420mm^2 seems about right.

The picture is tilted so I'm not sure how accurate they are.

does that suggest 28 or 40 nm?

Because microsoft originally claimed it was 40nm but then backtracked and said 28nm.

 

[Tap In]

does that suggest 28 or 40 nm?

Because microsoft originally claimed it was 40nm but then backtracked and said 28nm.

no, you are mistaken, Wired said 40 in their own story and they were assumed to be incorrect.

MS never said anything.

 

[loekf]

no, you are mistaken, Wired said 40 in their own story and they were assumed to be incorrect.

MS never said anything.

AFAIK the Wired article later on got corrected to 28 nm.

Stiill 420 mm2 is huge compared to Richland, which is ~250 mm2 in 28nm

So if you sell such a chip as regular PC CPU, pricing would be in order of 250~-300 dollar. Richland A10-6800 sells for 150 dollar.

 

[Michellstar]

Just hoping to see naked Durango ala WiiU die

 

[loekf]

Just hoping to see naked Durango ala WiiU die

Tried again.

Taking the Wired picture. The DRAM package is 24 pixels = 14 mm (see Micron website),
the XBone SoC die is ~124 pixels => one side is 72 mm. About 107 pixels in height, so that
makes 62 mm.

62 mm x 72 mm = 450 mm2

But... that's the BGA package sitting the heat spreader. Probably is a flip chip with bondpads mounted
on a laminate (small PCB). E.g. take 2 mm margin on each side. So: 68 x 58 = 394 mm2 is not that
unrealistic....

 

[Orion]

no, you are mistaken, Wired said 40 in their own story and they were assumed to be incorrect.

MS never said anything.

according to some journalists who got an exclusive peek at the Xbox One, Microsoft says the SoC is based on a 40nm process....

Updated: The latest information seems to be that Microsoft got it wrong, and that it is in fact a 28nm SoC, just like Kabini.-link

It says here that microsoft said so.

even one on GAF over 500mm^2.

what was his reasoning for this calculation?

 

[Rangers]

It says here that microsoft said so.what was his reasoning for this calculation?

I think it might be mistercteam nonsense, he's probably trying to say there must be super power in there because it's way too big to be anything else.

 

[Orion]

Tried again.

Taking the Wired picture. The DRAM package is 24 pixels = 14 mm (see Micron website),
the XBone SoC die is ~124 pixels => one side is 72 mm. About 107 pixels in height, so that
makes 62 mm.

62 mm x 72 mm = 450 mm2
.

hmmm
google calculator gives me the following

(62 millimeter) x 72 millimeter = 4464 mm squared

 

[expletive]

I think it might be mistercteam nonsense, he's probably trying to say there must be super power in there because it's way too big to be anything else.

First pixel peeping to determine resolution, now this!

 

[Orion]

edited out wrong info

I think it might be mistercteam nonsense, he's probably trying to say there must be super power in there because it's way too big to be anything else.

how could those ram chips be 14mm by 10mm? One side looks almost twice as long as the other. edited