KILLZONE Shadow Fall [PS4]

He said that if he had known it wasn't 1080p, he wouldn't have bought it. The implication is that a non pure 1920x1080 game damages that game experience. If this was the case and the game was ruined, he wouldn't have gotten any entertainment from it. As it stands, if he's played the game, he's saying, "This game wasn't 1080p. I've had lots of fun playing it. Now I want lots compensation."
That undermines the principle of his claim for compensation. What exactly would the guy be compensated for?

First Kotaku has the full lawsuit document here: http://kotaku.com/someones-suing-sony-because-a-ps4-game-isnt-1080p-1617200896
Second he didn't say that he had fun playing the game; you are suggesting/assuming that yourself because it supports your (very sensible IMO) line of though which is "if he had fun playing the game then there's no damage".

If that's all there was to it, the plaintiff would only raise one point in his argument - one quote of KZ:SF being 1080p native and one link to DF's analysis and subsequent blog showing it wasn't 1080p. In addition to the facts of the issue, the material damage is quantified in terms of impact and that affects how much the court would deem worth the compensation or fines.

To the US law what matters is the product description page which is what what all customers can see/read. DF and GG blog are less important.
If Sony lied or even omitted something there then there's nothing that will save them.
Now the compensation is the least important factor. It will either be reduced or the parts will reach an agreement and settle for much, much less...which most likely it's what they are really aiming for.

but the interpretation of "misled" also different from one person to another.
Promoting video game with bullshot seems considered okay. No company has been subjected to lawsuit because bullshot.

The only interpretation that matter is the one given by the law.
 
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I really dont like this lawsuit. I understand people being upset a little when the info about MP not being native 1080p came out. Only because they took their time getting the info out. Why they were not talking about the neat technique they used for the Mp frambuffer months before release I dont understand. It does make it seem like it was being hidden for some reason. The messed up part to me is the guy trying to say that because the box lists 1080p the game should be. Every game released last gen had multiple supported resolutions on the back of the box. I have never seen a game box bragging about what res it ran at. I hope I never do. People are already too infatuated with resolution and framerate. There is much more to beautiful graphics and gameplay than pixel count and refresh rate. This lawsuit is dumb.
 
I feel that the lawsuit is trying to conflate a term used in generalized marketing in one particular consumer electronics context with a debate over terms of an art removed from general understanding (Guerilla Games having something of a history with imprecise technical language aside).

My worry would be that giving this suit standing would be trying to mandate a specific relationship between a more nebulously timed 1080p used for the behavior of pixels in a video signal sent to the TV and how a set of graphical algorithms sample a simulated interactive 3D environment.

1080p for a TV in terms of more static media asks whether all lines of horizontal resolution in a particular frame are refreshed in a frame. It doesn't demand that every pixel in every line be different from the frame before, but unlike 1080i there is specific relationship that indicates that pixels in one line are transmitted as part of a different frame than those in the next line.
For a broadcast or media playback, this relationship and the values that define the visual output of those specific screen positions as transmitted to the TV are known and generally not variable.

I'm assuming we're going for the "real" HD moniker of 1920x1080, to avoid the debate in the media and TV realm where the actual length of those 1080 lines of resolution is not so set in stone. I don't think it actually has bearing here, even if it weren't.


The final render output of KZ's multiplayer mode does fit the literal definition, at least at the level of what gets passed through the HDMI cable to the TV. This doesn't exclude simple upscaling, but the actual final frames as set down at the final buffer flip are 1920x1080 pixels in dimension as well. Any specific screen position can at some point in gameplay change in the next frame in a way not consistent with a fixed relationship with other parts of the screen.

The debate arises because the number of newly rasterized visual samples of the simulation in screen space per frame is half that. The other half have values that rely on fetching three half-resolution data sets with alternating columns and a 1920x1080 reference. Internal tracking values and color comparisons are used to derive final outputs for the missing columns.

The question I ask is, does the version of 1080p the lawsuit claims we were cheated of that
1) Has been allowed in extant marketing to shave off columns
2) Defines how a television should interpret specific values in a signal and how it should sync those up with its physical output
3) Is used in common vernacular, but has through a result of convenience and the natural imprecision of human language overlapped with technical and academic communication and debate
4) Defines a specific relationship of pixels in a succession of transmitted frames

match up with what the final render output of KZ does?

There is no shortfall in pixels submitted to the outside world in a specific frame.
The number of instantaneous samples every 1/30th of a second is close to being equivalent to the non-disputed single player mode.
The primary detraction is that this method loses in terms of accuracy and precision in terms of how well it represents the dynamic state of the simulation at any instant.
The relationship of the filled-in values in the final output is derived from an algorithmically mutable set source values, with at least one source being what people would consider 1080p that is generated dynamically, with varying amounts of processing possible for each pixel.

While many pixels may be the same or likely almost the same, they don't have a fixed relationship beyond that the pixels that change the least are those whose simulation value has changed the least. Any given pixel can change from one frame to the next, but the renderer doesn't perform the same set of operations on each one from one frame to the next. One outcome is less demanding, but the descriptions of how the renderer gets to the point of reprojecting a pixel show it is not trivial.

Should the court demand that there be a mandatory link between 1080p, as a TV sees movie playback, and the specific number of sampling points as determined by a fixed function rasterizer's fragment coverage that is passed unmasked through a fragment shader, and then passed through as a singular contributor to a render back-end's writing to a buffer, possibly up to 2.5x as rapidly as a movie runs?

Is this saying that a wholly imprecise advertising must mandate a highly specific implementation of 3D engine output?
We have game engines that heavily rely on fractional-resolution intermediate values, values held over from previous frames, assets of varying resolutions on disk and varying visual resolution depending on where they are relative to the camera. We have values that don't go through the conventional raster pipeline. We don't require that every pixel that comes out of the renderer have had every shader applied to it identically.

How can we declare a somewhat artifacted and possibly blurry reprojected output as being inferior when as a rule the non-objectionable games have everyone slathering a heavy layer of film grain, god rays, simulated cataracts, bloom, fog, DOF, and then maybe an artifacting scaler on top? What is the legal measure for being too blurry to count as whatever 1080p should have been?
Arriving at a generally similar, but likely artifacted and less precise output is how many smart TVs get away saying that they are 240Hz, when it is physically beyond them.

Is the court to take a marketing blooper from one realm of extreme imprecision and non-technical vernacular and make it an exact requirement in a different field where the definitions are actually different and not really understood or considered in the former?
 
The question I ask is, does the version of 1080p the lawsuit claims we were cheated of that
yes & didnt require a page of text as well
Im (as I've said over and over again her) of the opinion if you claim it, it should be true
any BS speak about being half frames whilst 3dilettante can rabbit on about it and please the plebs with his bollux for me its a mellow bell (and I aint smoked in years) sorry lost my train of rant - had to help someone with skype
// edit - and still not solved, bloody yahoo mail, 1080p is 1920x1080 and frame sent at each refresh (which is opening itself open to lawyer ahahs) but 1080 is the main(**) framebuffer, OK its acceptable for <10%(*) of the graphics to be at lower res eg particle stuff

(*) 10% can the lawyer fight about, but the z metric is if you're talking shit then you die for wasting my time and being a dick (the lawyers are also culpable for damages/death penalty)
(**) another can of worms
 
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My worry would be that giving this suit standing would be trying to mandate a specific relationship between a more nebulously timed 1080p used for the behavior of pixels in a video signal sent to the TV and how a set of graphical algorithms sample a simulated interactive 3D environment.
Easily fixed - don't talk resolution. We never used to. Just drop all references. Every TV supports whatever video out the game supports, so the resolution's description has no intrinsic value. "1080p output" means about as much as "fun, exciting gameplay" on a box. Lose it and just have people play the games as they used to with no idea what the resolution or framerate is other than their eyes ability to see stuff.

1080p is 1920x1080 and frame sent at each refresh (which is opening itself open to lawyer ahahs) but 1080 is the main(**) framebuffer, OK its acceptable for <10%(*) of the graphics to be at lower res eg particle stuff

(*) 10% can the lawyer fight about, but the z metric is if you're talking shit then you die for wasting my time and being a dick (the lawyers are also culpable for damages/death penalty)
(**) another can of worms
The box says '1080p HD video output', so at least one of the points of complaint doesn't pertain to rendering resolution.
 
How can we declare a somewhat artifacted and possibly blurry reprojected output as being inferior when as a rule the non-objectionable games have everyone slathering a heavy layer of film grain, god rays, simulated cataracts, bloom, fog, DOF, and then maybe an artifacting scaler on top? What is the legal measure for being too blurry to count as whatever 1080p should have been?

This part is important. They could run, for example, a film grain filter that runs at 1080p on top of a 720p upscaled buffer and call it a day: if the plaintiff requires full use of his full HD TV, with the film grain is only to be appreciated fully only with his beloved full HD TV.
 
This is a slippery litigation slope.

Are we going to see lawsuits against movies released on Blu-ray where the director has reframed a shot in post-production by zooming below 1080, and then upscaling?
The back of the box does after all promise high definition 1080 video.
 
What’s next? :rolleyes:
- XB1 user suing MS for not delivering on the promise of Kinect and the games to support it?
- PS4 users suing Sony for not supporting EA access?
- PC gamers suing game developers for purposely pairing down graphics *cough* Watch Dogs *cough* to match the console version?
- Wii U user suing UBIsoft and EA for taunting them of all the games to come? :p

Your scenarios are proving that companies fail to meet their promise routinely and it needs to be discouraged
The Killzone case is mild compared to some of the examples you mentioned above
 
What I find more disturbing about the whole thing is that the case is trying to make it as if there was a promise made and that evil company tried to put one over us by cheating us over.

The sad thing is; Guerrilla seemed to be very excited about the technique they implemented to achieve a 60fps experience for the multiplayer experience. Lets be clear about one thing; when creating games on consoles with finite resources, there are always trade-offs, somewhere.

I'll say it again; if this trial goes through, then they might as well also start sueing any game that fails to maintain a constant framerate without any dips - because once you see a tear on your screen, technically your game hasn't rendered the full *promised frame in thr given refresh interval. That's not more a 1080p game than a game using a complex render method from half frames to form a unique fully rendered progressive 1920x1080 frame.
 
It's the only video game I have non-digital, and yep, it says HD video output on mine (480P-720P-1080i-1080P) which is information only intended for television compatibility imho.
 
It's the only video game I have non-digital, and yep, it says HD video output on mine (480P-720P-1080i-1080P) which is information only intended for television compatibility imho.

That's how I always understood it. I hope this jackass goes broke from his stupid lawsuit.
 
That's how I always understood it. I hope this jackass goes broke from his stupid lawsuit.

Agreed. Before its sets a rediculously shitty precedent.

Had this idiot been suing Ubitsoft for Watchdogs not looking like the original trailor, I doubt even few would be in objection. But this is just downright gross and a waste of everyone's time.
 
yes & didnt require a page of text as well
Im (as I've said over and over again her) of the opinion if you claim it, it should be true
any BS speak about being half frames whilst 3dilettante can rabbit on about it and please the plebs with his bollux for me its a mellow bell (and I aint smoked in years) sorry lost my train of rant - had to help someone with skype
I'm afraid I'm not sure what is being said here.

// edit - and still not solved, bloody yahoo mail, 1080p is 1920x1080 and frame sent at each refresh (which is opening itself open to lawyer ahahs) but 1080 is the main(**) framebuffer
It is. The lawsuit is complaining about the resolution of three buffers that feed into it.

, OK its acceptable for <10%(*) of the graphics to be at lower res eg particle stuff
I've got bad news about the vast majority of the screen that is at a lower LOD than a few items closest to the camera.




Easily fixed - don't talk resolution. We never used to. Just drop all references. Every TV supports whatever video out the game supports, so the resolution's description has no intrinsic value.
There are older and cheaper TVs that might not handle 1080p, or not handle it well.
There is still utility for consumers to know whether a their experience could be made better or would be mostly identical between a 720p and a 1080p set.

If the utility of the packaging is whether there is a notable difference in the game's appearance between 1080p and something else, that's also an area where the lawsuit would have a weakness.
If there were an example video of KZ's MP mode with the renderer adjusted to 720p output and then upscaled, there would be a visual difference.

The sad thing is; Guerrilla seemed to be very excited about the technique they implemented to achieve a 60fps experience for the multiplayer experience. Lets be clear about one thing; when creating games on consoles with finite resources, there are always trade-offs, somewhere.
I would say that Guerrilla has sometimes overinflated their acheivements through conflating terms of the art, but that is part of a rather arcane technical debate.
 
There are older and cheaper TVs that might not handle 1080p, or not handle it well.

There is still utility for consumers to know whether a their experience could be made better or would be mostly identical between a 720p and a 1080p set.
The labelling on the packaging doesn't serve this purpose. All that's there (on the EU packaging at least) is an icon saying "1080p HD video output." It doesn't inform users that lower resolutions are available, nor what minimum TV spec they will need.

Dropping the resolution references would leave people no worse off than they are now regards display compatibility. But surely every TV connected via HDMI is at least 720p capable and so no mention need be made per title. Leave it to the system manual to talk about supported TVs and resolutions.
 
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