Japanese Article: Developers leaving Sony (PS3)

Acert93 said:
What Newell said was accurate... for him.

For PS2 developers who invested heavily into EE, SPEs offer a great oppurtunity for substantually more power than EE and in an easy to use environment.

Its called: Perspective.

That is why a single quote, or even a half dozen, is worthless. The games thoughout the entire generation--how many, how good, how well they sold, how much profit devs make, etc--determines the pros and cons. And THOSE things are tied up as much into marketing, brand appeal, business relationships, etc... than anything else.


So let me see if I understand this right? So because the EE was clumsy and difficult to program for thats going to make coding for Cell easier? Can you please explain to us how you are connecting the dots on a techical level? I see very little in common between Cell and EE besides the fact that they are both going to be difficult\expensive to develop for in comparison to the compitition.
 
Shifty Geezer said:
It's not at all difficult to make any processor grind to a halt. In most cases I imagine duffing up a SPE would only cripple that SPE and the others would keep running unless they're dependant on data from that SPE. What tiny little change can you make to a SPE program to grind the system to a halt that you can't make on a XeCPU thread?

The only obvious risk is if when such a bug occurs the dev tools aren't there to find it. Nyah, we've hacked this quote to death already!

I'd like to hear from these devs as to what is so costly about the PS3. If they're leaving the platform why do they care about staying anonymous?


Yeah agreed.

However, I would also like to hear more devs discuss code portability between all the platforms. I think it would shed some light on this thread if we had a sense of it. (e.g. 80% of PS3 code could be used for 360, 60% of PS3 code could be used on PC, etc.)

J
 
c0_re said:
So let me see if I understand this right? So because the EE was clumsy and difficult to program for thats going to make coding for Cell easier?

I believe hes linking former developers of the PS2 with knowledge on how to develop for the PS2 should be easier to develop for the CELL or the PS3. Its not that much of a stretch to say that former developers of the PS2 would have some type of advantage with the PS3.
 
Didn't someone say that you don't specifically write code for any particular SPE, that it's scheduled the tools?
 
c0_re said:
Revolution will go no where, too many people burned by the "GameCube experience"(Yes I own one and Zelda did rock) or lack there of. Nintendo is done they just don't know it yet.
what burned you the GCN
 
Who said that ps3cell and ps2ee are compatible for programers?
Even today (beta dev kit) is unclear if hardware emulation of ps2 on ps3 is possible.
 
c0_re said:
So let me see if I understand this right? So because the EE was clumsy and difficult to program for thats going to make coding for Cell easier? Can you please explain to us how you are connecting the dots on a techical level? I see very little in common between Cell and EE besides the fact that they are both going to be difficult\expensive to develop for in comparison to the compitition.
Blue connected the dots.

We have had devs here note that the "genetic material" for the SPEs are the VU0/VU1 units in the EE. By all accounts SPEs are easier to work with than EE.

So someone familiar with writing code and fighting the EE for the last 6 years gets an oppurtunity to work with SPEs that are not only more flexible, but more powerful, they will be happy.

And in some devs opinions the power they offer is worth the tradeoff; coming from a PS2 perspective that is not hard to believe either. So if you have been budgeted to work with PS2/EE and can now work with a more user friendly PS3/SPE (w/ RSX!) it does not seem bad at all!

Again, perspective.

What is your background? What is your goal? What is your budget and market forcast?

A PS2 dev focusing almost exclusively on the PS3 is going to have a different feeling and approach to the issue than a cross platforming PC developer.

Niether is right or wrong universally. This is not to say one is not easier to work with than the other, but a PS2 developer trying to do X chore may be more comfortable with one environment over the other. Ease may not be their primary concern. Yet it is for others.

To each their own. Who sells the most consoles, and more importantly, who sells the most games (and keeps big and small devs afloat) wins. And if it is anything like past generations there is no "one winner many losers". Nintendo has been winning EVERY generation since the NES.

So there is no "right" way. Obviously there is a lot of talk about 360/PC portability--and we are seeing this at launch--but that is not the big picture. Neither is the Japanese market. They are all important, but they are important only within their own context and perspective.

Blue said:
Its not that much of a stretch to say that former developers of the PS2 would have some type of advantage with the PS3.
Over PC devs yes, over PS2 development good chance (less the rising demands of consumers and dev costs, but that is a different problem, not platform specific development/coding issue).

Of course there are easier to work on platforms than the PS2. I am sure a PS2 dev would find the PC possibly the easiest platform, and yet the cost of a gaming PC ($,$$$) and the smaller install base makes it undesirable. So ease of use is not the only part of the equation. The same balance is true of the PS3 (and 360). The fine balance between power, install base, game attach rate, development costs, ease of use, etc... The PS2 was insanely popular with developers because it was HOT HOT HOT.

Earning money is the only important thing in the long run. If it costs 10% more to develop on the PS3 but means 30% more profits, well, any bean counter can tell you the answer to that question ;)
 
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Acert93 said:
Earning money is the only important thing in the long run. If it costs 10% more to develop on the PS3 but means 30% more profits, well, any bean counter can tell you the answer to that question ;)

Would you agree that code non-portability introduces higher risk for development studios?

I'm going to TRY draw a parallel and one thats used a lot by members of the industry.

"All the major razor blade manufacturers are coming out with new products this year. As a smaller manufacturer of razor blade catridges you ahve a choice. You can make blade cartridges that only work in gillete razors(of course we know these manufacturers make all their own blades but play along :) ), which had 60% of the market last 'generation.'

Or you can make cartridges that will work (with minimal effort) on the ramining 3 brands of razors. Analysts expect gilletes market share to decline somewhat this generation, but they dont know by how much."

If code portability is the problem, which we dont know if it is, i think this is what the small to mid dev houses are facing. What if you develop for gillete and no one buys your blades? You're wiped out. Much less risk with the cross platform approach.

I would think that things like the Unreal 3 engine could even the playing field quite a bit. (interesting thought tho, is there any portability between UE3 devkits on different platforms?).

So while your statement is correct if you hit sales numbers, your risk is much higher of being wiped out by a bad title, or even a decent title that for some reason, doesnt sell well.

J
 
Look at the current generation, PS2 code wasn't all that portable since if you wanted to get good performance out of it you needed to use the VU's. It just doesn't seem to me like there's going to be a big difference between this gen and next gen since supposedly the hardware this gen was more different than it's going to be next gen?
 
Mordecaii said:
Look at the current generation, PS2 code wasn't all that portable since if you wanted to get good performance out of it you needed to use the VU's. It just doesn't seem to me like there's going to be a big difference between this gen and next gen since supposedly the hardware this gen was more different than it's going to be next gen?


I think last gen it was clear early on that PS2 was going to steamroll the dreamcast dont you think?

J
 
expletive said:
Would you agree that code non-portability introduces higher risk for development studios?

No. Perspective and other factors can be much more important:

1. they expect PS3 to sell 90M+ units again and can stand out, and therefor sell more, by focusing on one system (this is true of ANY platform)

2. their franchise fans are PS3 fans and cross platforming dilutes their product

3. Sony is giving them good money to stay

4. Porting code can be very expensive, and for firms with smaller staffs this could be suicide

If code portability is the problem, which we dont know if it is, i think this is what the small to mid dev houses are facing. What if you develop for gillete and no one buys your blades? You're wiped out. Much less risk with the cross platform approach.
Yet even most Xbox fans expect the PS3 to sell best world wide this gen. So if anything the PS3 is not a risk--especially if some of the above (or other) factors apply.

I would think that things like the Unreal 3 engine could even the playing field quite a bit. (interesting thought tho, is there any portability between UE3 devkits on different platforms?).
The problem with UE3 is they have stated they have not specialized for the CPUs much at all at this point; further is that you run the risk of a cookie cutter product. UE3 is expensive ($1M)--and you STILL need to modify it for your game. The advantage is getting artists and map/level designers working EARLY in the process--with less requirement for assistance from programmers.

But this approach will not benefit or even appeal to all development houses.

So while your statement is correct if you hit sales numbers, your risk is much higher of being wiped out by a bad title, or even a decent title that for some reason, doesnt sell well.
A bad title can kill you anyhow. Being on multiple platforms does not always help sales because the risk is diluting your product and being less focused on the actual product (trying to jump through hoops to get decent performance on more than one system, cutting features because they work well on one and not the other, etc).

There are far too many factors, and market positions, to say one is better than another. If I had to choose between a middle of the road 7.5 title on 2 platforms or an 8.5 with great graphics on 1 platform, the chances are the 8.5 is going to sell better.

EA noted that something like over 40 (or 48, something like that) of the 70 best selling games had a mean review at Gamerankings.com had a mean score of 8.0 or HIGHER. Obviously MANY good games don't sell well (market position, branding, advertising, doesn't give with the mass market, too smart, too hard, whatever); but on the other hand if your game stinks it probably wont sell very well.

So if I am a PS2 developer knowing I MUST make a game that is an 8.0 or better, do I work to my strengths: We are good at exposing and maximizing performance on EE, do we focus on exploiting the SPEs and make a graphically killer game OR do we make a generic engine that can either work on SPEs or Xenon?

Same thing for 360 devs. Do we make a title that can be toned down and work well on the PC, something that is portable to the PS2, or do we completely focus on the 360 and try to stand out on that platform?

There is much to be said to be the BEST game in a genre on a platform. What will sell better on next gen consoles through 2006:

PGR3
NFS

Look at DoA. Being one of the best fighters on the Xbox really made them a LOT of money.

Portability is a factor, but cross platforming is not for everyone. Dev team size, experience, goals, competition (both on the platform and genre wide) all play factors.

So there are obvious cases where specializing is better. My guess is that for many PS2 devs--especially those who were PS2 exclusive--that remaining so could be a very good move if certain criteria are met.

Those with larger dev teams and have a hot product then cross platforming is a good idea. For those with large dev teams and a middle of the road product, well, I am not sure either route will be good.
 
27-Sep-2005, 15:30 #6
Shifty Geezer
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,685


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Are Sony FORCING devs to spend millions? If they can make a simpler game on the rival consoles without spending a fortune, why can't they manage that on PS3? If an MGS game cost $40 million and you only want to make a $500,000 puzzle game, why can't you do that on PS3?
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Shifty Geezer






I agree with sifty, I have been longing for a final fantasy 8 card battle game online, or the puzzles of Onimusha 2 and 3. think about it, simple yet complex mind games are way more addcitive. Think about tetris vs lets say a Halo(which is way overrated). tetris holds more weight in the 'addicted' too part.

make a simple yet compelling game, market it good. Hope it is a winner, use earnings to move on to bigger and better.
 
Acert93 said:
Unnamed devs = pointless opinion.

Totally in agreement. Eh, what if all the unnamed devs were from one company or one type of gaming segment (ie video pinball). At this point, not enough info was given...I tried reading the machine translated article, but my brain hurts after two sentences.

Secondly, people opinions change over time. And considering the PS3 is in such a hazy state, it's common for devs to be wary. It's an interesting news article as it may indicate something from one or two perspectives, but nothing to be alarmed about...

The only time we have to be concern is when this sort of *news reports* are reflected in actual trends, such was cancellation of games, schedule slipping, etc. And I just don't see that...
 
TrungGap said:
Totally in agreement. Eh, what if all the unnamed devs were from one company or one type of gaming segment (ie video pinball). At this point, not enough info was given...I tried reading the machine translated article, but my brain hurts after two sentences.

Secondly, people opinions change over time. And considering the PS3 is in such a hazy state, it's common for devs to be wary. It's an interesting news article as it may indicate something from one or two perspectives, but nothing to be alarmed about...

The only time we have to be concern is when this sort of *news reports* are reflected in actual trends, such was cancellation of games, schedule slipping, etc. And I just don't see that...

Agree. I think they could be extrapolating the fact that the 360 has gotten a lot more japanese developer support this time around to them as 'leaving sony'. While i think the 360 is making serious headway in japan, i dont think its necesserily becasue of developer defections.

J
 
expletive said:
Would you agree that code non-portability introduces higher risk for development studios?
Code portability's a non-issue next-gen, just as it was this gen. If anything it could be considered a little easier than this gen. PS2 and XB had zero code portability as there were such different machines. Next gen the PPE can possibly run a XeCPU core's code without too much reworking. Hmm, tell a lie. 128 VMX registers vs. 32 or whatever it is in PPE; that might not be too pleasant to work with. Still without the VMX stuff code might be quite cut-and-paste.

Basically your teams write an engine, with a totally different code base for each platform, but which offers the same high-level interfacing. Portability becomes a case of how compatible your engine is. Like Java, the engine sits between the hardware and the game, and just as Java allows the same code to run on totally different hardware, the engines take up the brunt of portability. You then recycle these engines on other products and can license it on if you've got a good one.

Next-gen enters with some strong 3rd party engines available for those who can afford it and aren't in a position t write their own engines.
 
TrungGap said:
Acert93 said:
Unnamed devs = pointless opinion.
Totally in agreement.
Funny that last time Un-named devs claimed that the PS3 was more powerful, there wasnt any agreements on this point.

(Not taking a shot at either of you, you may have brought the same point up then also which I may have missed :|)
 
serenity said:
Funny that last time Un-named devs claimed that the PS3 was more powerful, there wasnt any agreements on this point.

(Not taking a shot at either of you, you may have brought the same point up then also which I may have missed :|)
Actually that is what my original post was about ;) People want to believe what they want to believe. If the unnamed dev agrees with them they praise him as a holy prophet of immutable truth, if he disagrees he is proclaimed to be a fake and that this was all done as a PR stunt to sell copies.

Both topics (technical abilities of the consoles; developer support and costs) are worthwhile topics and people are free to voice their opinions from their perspective and experience. But it does appear to be a double standard at times. At that all you can do is laugh and not take it too seriously. Remember,

Internet: Strike 1.
Console discussion: Strike 2.

If you take it too seriously, knowing full well that the above two rules are in place, well that is Strike 3 and can lead to a stroke ;) Ironically some of the most objective people here are the developers. It says a lot that people whose income is partly dependant on these things can be rational and even handed that we, the fans, should be too. But sadly: Internet + Consoles....
 
I do think that Sony is trying to set the standard for next gen... and are leary of releasing media of iffy proportions... wheather this translates to games as a whole (or developers) or not is yet to be seen... also I don't think it's been proven that Sony ever had a strict "no 2d policy" in place, so this could just be getting blown out of proportion.
 
talyn99 said:
I agree with sifty, I have been longing for a final fantasy 8 card battle game online, or the puzzles of Onimusha 2 and 3. think about it, simple yet complex mind games are way more addcitive. Think about tetris vs lets say a Halo(which is way overrated). tetris holds more weight in the 'addicted' too part.

make a simple yet compelling game, market it good. Hope it is a winner, use earnings to move on to bigger and better.
I think the current royalty setup is a limiting factor here for those kinds of games (I'm speaking of how a publisher pays the console maker up front whatever units they manufacture, not on what they sell). In fact, it seems particularly biased toward known quantities; a sequel, a sure fire hit, a movie-licensed game. For simple games that cost $500,000, you're better off on the PC market, and maybe on Xbox Live Arcade, though I don't know how one goes about getting a game there, and what the license cost is.

.Sis
 
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