Is this the truth about Blu-ray Drives?
- Thread starter dodo3
- Start date
Cost. Space. Seek Times. Reliability. Exclusive or multi-platform?
These are all things that will factor into a game using Blu-Ray or not. Why put something on Blu-Ray with slower seek times, when it's cheaper and runs better if you put it on DVDs? I wouldn't be shocked if there were more multi-DVD games on PS3 then Blu-Ray titles... Of course exclusives will probably take advantage of it, if just to set an example.
These are all things that will factor into a game using Blu-Ray or not. Why put something on Blu-Ray with slower seek times, when it's cheaper and runs better if you put it on DVDs? I wouldn't be shocked if there were more multi-DVD games on PS3 then Blu-Ray titles... Of course exclusives will probably take advantage of it, if just to set an example.
Basically the lowest end of speeds that you'd expect CAV or Z-CLV drives would be around 3.5-4x (in order to also meet BD-ROM Movie requirements). Nothing has actually been specified about the type of drive which will be used in the PS3, but you can be sure that Sony are quite aware of the seek time problems associated with CLV. Consoles are not designed only on the principle of keeping costs down, they also have to conform to requirements specifications for performance, noise, and thermal characteristics.
Sony should be aware of what performance they would need to provide acceptable gaming on BD-ROM media. The actual statement that CLV is not enough for gaming is somewhat bunk since we don't yet know what kind of seek times we'll expect (and that Blu-Ray offers great flexibility in terms of redundant data to help reduce seeks).
This does somewhat ignore the fact that most first gen PS3 games won't need the space, and no multiplatform titles are likely to ever need the space. And it also ignores the fact games are often designed by addressing design considerations like seek time and drive speed. A game well optimised for seek times will not suffer nearly as much as one which put little effort into addressing the issue.
Finally, it is often brought up that Sony cannot 'afford' to use a 4x drive in the PS3. This I find to be a fallacy, since there are no mass produced slower drives available as the 'cheaper' option (and yes I accept that it will cost more for higher speeds it is how much that is the issue). The drive speed will likely be a compromise on price and performance rather than solely one of them.
Sony should be aware of what performance they would need to provide acceptable gaming on BD-ROM media. The actual statement that CLV is not enough for gaming is somewhat bunk since we don't yet know what kind of seek times we'll expect (and that Blu-Ray offers great flexibility in terms of redundant data to help reduce seeks).
This does somewhat ignore the fact that most first gen PS3 games won't need the space, and no multiplatform titles are likely to ever need the space. And it also ignores the fact games are often designed by addressing design considerations like seek time and drive speed. A game well optimised for seek times will not suffer nearly as much as one which put little effort into addressing the issue.
Finally, it is often brought up that Sony cannot 'afford' to use a 4x drive in the PS3. This I find to be a fallacy, since there are no mass produced slower drives available as the 'cheaper' option (and yes I accept that it will cost more for higher speeds it is how much that is the issue). The drive speed will likely be a compromise on price and performance rather than solely one of them.
zidane1strife
Banned
for some reason I doubt that's true...
Anyway I expect a 4x drive, which with added redundancy and more data at disc's edge will provide substantially faster loadtimes than rev./x360
Anyway I expect a 4x drive, which with added redundancy and more data at disc's edge will provide substantially faster loadtimes than rev./x360
zidane1strife said:
Well if that's the case (and it may very well be). What is the point of putting games on Blu-Ray if they aren't going to take advantage of the space? Using the space to add more redundancy and only using the outer edge? Plus the added cost of the medium? Might as well just put the game on a DVD don't you think?
Hardknock said:
It is more than likely that Sony will subsidise the use of BD-ROM media, at least initially. They will be the primary manufacturers of the discs so all orders will go through them anyway. If their intentions are to promote Blu-Ray as a viable gaming medium then they will ensure that cost is not a limiting factor. All your other points are fine though, I can think that probably only multiplatform movie license games will be on BD-ROM's unless development shifts to the PS3 as the primary SKU.
After all, you have to understand that the reason the vast majority of multiplatform games weighed in under 4GB this gen was because the PS2 was the primary development platform and developers had to fight the design considerations which were put into the machine. Layer transitions were basically a limiting factor, and were out of the question for almost all game genres (why talk of dual layer San Andreas never produced any results). Game scope and content gets designed around this limitation which is why ports are often smaller say for the xbox, because of better compression techniques and less need for redundancy.
If the Xbox was the primary SKU for last gen, then this would have proved very problematic for the PS2 (such was seen for games like Psychonauts and a couple of games which had the GCN as a primary platform).
This will be exactly the same kind of issue for next gen. So while the 360 remains the primary development platform, I expect all multiplatform games to remain DVD sized. There will of course be exceptions to this rule but game engine and content will be built around the capacity limitations with the 360 provides. A shift over to the PS3 and thats where these games start getting build around the principle of 25GB storage capacity.
Mmmkay said:
Nope.
The primary platform for console developers is the PS3.
360 ports of PS3 games will have music and video downsampled or dropped from the game. And if that isn't enough other game content will be downgraded or dropped. And if that isn't enough the 360 just won't get the game.
Exactly the same way it worked for PS2 -> GC titles.
Mmmkay, thank you for your quick reply, but can you please make an educated guess on this question, even though you're unsure:
What are the chances of PlayStation 3 being the primary console for the next generation?
What are the chances of PlayStation 3 being equipped with a 4x BD-ROM drive?
What are the chances CAV will be used in the BD-ROM instead of Z-CLV? Is it possible to have both?
Thanks.
What are the chances of PlayStation 3 being the primary console for the next generation?
What are the chances of PlayStation 3 being equipped with a 4x BD-ROM drive?
What are the chances CAV will be used in the BD-ROM instead of Z-CLV? Is it possible to have both?
Thanks.
SubD said:
How are you so sure that the primary console is going to be the PlayStation 3? Wouldn't you think XBOX 360 would be the primary since most developers have already started production of their games on that console?
How is the content going to be 'downgraded' or 'dropped'? I'm not quite understanding.
ImaginaryIndustryInsider
Newcomer
dodo3 said:
To save space, he contends that audio will be down-sampled, video will be downgraded or sacked altogether, features and extras such as "the making of", multiplayer, and the biggest storage whore of all, interactive gameplay, maybe cut completely, leaving you with this:
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dodo3 said:
Oh jeez, well I'm a nobody so my opinion doesn't hold much weight. But I'd say that for at least the next 2 years the 360 will remain the lead platform (for the majority!! of multiplatform games). There may be a point where there are joint development plans, when PS3 development tools mature enough and market share becomes more evenly split. After that, it may just become developer preference, it really depends on how well the PS3 sells. I know that just as some developers are keen to work closely with the technology innovations the Rev promises, there will be a similar keenness towards expanding on the possibilities for the extra space Blu-Ray offers. There are so many things that could happen over the next 2 years before everything becomes clear and we still know very little about the Revolution and its place.
4x CAV? Hm that is the top of the realistic wish list in terms of drive performance. I'm optimistic but realistically I don't think they'd have it ready in time. 3x Z-CLV is my shot in the dark guess. It is a compromise between both technologies and improves on the poor seek times which CLV offers. But to be honest, they could surprise us with anything, it's such a grey area because the PS3 will feature the first large volume mass produced BD-ROM drive.
Oh and I really don't agree with what SubD said. While there will be some games which Sony have secured primary development work for, the majority currently in development (and entering in the near future) should realistically be based around the 360. It has the installed base, and more mature development environment.
P.S. I love you ImaginaryIndustryInsider
ImaginaryIndustryInsider said:
ImaginaryIndustryInsider said:To save space, he contends that audio will be down-sampled, video will be downgraded or sacked altogether, features and extras such as "the making of", multiplayer, and the biggest storage whore of all, interactive gameplay, maybe cut completely, leaving you with this:
LMAO! Thanks for the info.
dubyateeeff
Newcomer
Hardknock said:
Look at PS2. A lot of games in the beginning were just CD-sized, but were still released on DVD because of piracy issues.
... "A lot"
...And marmots are doing the chocolate wrapping in swiss alps, where all the cows are purple.TRega123 said:
What early games use will mostly be determined by manufacture costs - many 1st gen PS2 games shipped on CD because it was cheaper to do so.
At any rate, the only "near BluRay" tech that Sony has demonstrated so far (the professional drive) works in both CAV and CLV modes, and can actually switch between them automatically.
Besides, even at 4x speed BRD, the transfer speeds relative to memory size will still be Slower then they are with PS2/XBox, making the relative effect of seek times smaller as well.
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