Is there a future for consoles without a return to exotic hardware? *spawn

I think it's time we set this "foreign labor is cheaper" to rest. Having worked directly for the IT orgs of Fortune 250 or larger companies for 25 of my prior 27 years of employment (and those middle two years were when I led half the IT org for a billion+ dollar nonprofit medicaid provider for the state of Kentucky), I can tell you unequivocally foreign labor isn't any of the utopia some people thought it was a decade or two ago.

Can you get cheaper labor than here in the states? Yes, but not by a whole lot. Those places in the world where "cheap" labor once existed have long since caught on; billable rates have skyrocketed in the last five years as those labor forces realize they can actually charge a whole lot more for their talents. Gone are the days you can nab someone from India with a doctorate for 30 cents on the dollar, just to pound out dumb code. The current rate now is a lot closer to 75-85 cents on the US dollar, which is still "a discount" so long as you're ok with the other tradeoffs.

So let's talk about those tradoffs. Your company also ends up in a place where you don't actually own or control the code. Great, you told a bunch of contractors to write your code, but now that code is everywhere on the planet AND when the contract is done, all the people with the core knowledge of how it works are gone too. Oh, so you're going to hire those people to avoid this problem? The Indian government has a lot of requirements on how that must be structured, how your local corporate presence must be licensed and managed, and thus your "discount" rate continues being chipped away. You now have to ship hardware and software to those locations, you now must manage those environments which also means standing up remote IT support orgs for those people. Not every help desk for US-based IT dev shops exists outside of the US, whether you believe it or not. The amount of money, time, and effort to get a rapidly shrinking discount stops making sense at a certain point.

Maybe now you're thinking to use another country for cheap labor instead? Everyone's rates are going up, because there isn't some vast untapped IT resource pool which hasn't already been plundered where the locals haven't also figured out they can start charging a lot more. And ultimately, for what exactly? Why does our NEED for cheap video games REQUIRE wage-slaves? That's a pretty bleak outlook. I'm not sure I'm interested in supporting that model. Society has been built on depressing or enslaving other peoples for thousands of years; isn't there a point where we could possibly stop doing that and let everyone have an equal chance?

But no, because we need cheap things. If our video games aren't cheap, then what's the point of our unhappy lives?!? What will we ever do?!? Who will think of the poor Americans who have decided they need other people's slave labor to be happy and content?? /s
 
We need to steer clear of politics here. ;) Exploitation/employment opportunities is open to debate as we eschew ethics and just look at what's feasible. Once a business plan is drawn up, we can decide whether it's morally objectionable or not in another forum. :p
 
If you have a low install base, developers are going to mostly ignore your platform regardless of how 'easy' the said target is or not like we see with the Dreamcast or even the very first Xbox console ...

At least with cheaper exotic hardware you can scale your install base FAR FASTER and HIGHER because of the lower pricing friction and I don't know why you can't see this plus side when the many successful gaming systems actually HAVE exotic hardware!

Exotic designs also have other advantages like being able to seriously market "optimized experiences" with games for lead platform status no matter how much you brute force your way through by throwing more expensive bloated standardized HW against it ...
 
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Nintendo has discovered being a cheapass works great for them. Sony won a generation with PC hardware. Microsoft woke up to the fact that they probably never should have had a console.

Who exactly is going to design the hardware?
 
At least with cheaper exotic hardware you can scale your install base FAR FASTER and HIGHER because of the lower pricing friction
Not if there are zero games. Offer me a console with fabulous hardware for $50 and no games, I won't buy it because it'd be a waste of $50, no matter how good the hardware is.
and I don't know why you can't see this plus side when the many successful gaming systems actually HAVE exotic hardware!
In previous decades when there was no other option and it made economic sense (and in counter to your argument, the best overall hardware of the PS2 era was the conventional PC design). Times have changed. We need an argument that fits the current technological and economic landscape.
Exotic designs also have other advantages like being able to seriously market "optimized experiences" with games for lead platform status no matter how much you brute force your way through by throwing more expensive bloated standardized HW against it ...
Okay, present such an architecture. What is this design going to be? What's it going to do different? Cell meets Larrabee 256 Cell processors all software rendering? You can't just say "do something exotic" as if it's magically viable without even a basic prototype to reference. There needs to be proof something better is possible. Much better, at better value. if it's only marginally better, you lose all the software and tooling and multiplatform for a bit more...what? GI as standard? 25% Better framerates than the conventional architecture?
 
If the cost of game development is a problem then the industry should learn and embrace OUTSOURCING to take advantage of potentially higher productivity offered in some foreign labour markets. We know for a fact that there are talented developers exist there or are waiting to be found OUTSIDE the western sphere of influence whether we like them or not ...
Oh trust me, most large games use as much outsourcing as they possibly can. There's no principled issue that I know of at this point, it's all practical considerations.

The big one though that doesn't jive with your vision is that outsourcing is significantly less effective when you're using a bespoke engine/renderer/hardware. Part of the convergence towards a few standardized game engines (and hardware) has been around the content pipeline for this very reason. It's much easier and cheaper to find folks who know how to use Unity or Unreal already than to train them up on your in house editor, tools, etc. that are typically being developed in parallel with the game itself.

I too remember fondly the days of designing and optimizing games very specifically for a piece of hardware. These cases do still exist for smaller games with budgets more similar to what a AAA budget used to be back in those days. But the modern AAA budget and content expectations have gotten to the level that it seems even Sony first party is forced to admit they need multiple platforms to have any possibility of breaking even or making a profit. Obviously that erodes the console model over time, but conversely it gives more people access to some excellent games without having to own a bunch of boxes that - let's be honest - have similar hardware and do similar things.

In any case I agree with you that there still is space for games that really want to go down to the metal on consoles to do better than the multiplatform (or even the console lead!) stuff does today. How much space there is is up for debate of course. But it's hard to imagine it's gonna be more than... say... the difference between a PS5 and a PS5 Pro, and it doesn't seem like consumers these days are necessarily getting overly excited about what that level of difference gets you in terms of visuals. Hell I think Switch and Steak Deck (not to mention the most popular games being played) have to be considered as some amount of evidence that the appetite of the average consumer towards higher end graphics vs other concerns is slowing. And I say this despite my personal wants and biases :)
 
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@Lauritzen touched on something which I feel needs more expansion: why can't (or, shouldn't) Sony or Microsoft build their own, bespoke game engine, built straight to the metal of their products, optimized to demonstrate the unique strengths of the hardware they've selected? At the end of the day, customers don't give two turds about what's inside the box, they are paying for the gaming experience. For all they care, it could be a stupidly overclocked AMD 6x86 on a Socket 7 board with a Rage128 card slapped in it. So long as the games meet or exceed their expectations, they'll be happy.

This goes back to so many of the old PC arguments about transistor densities and performance per millimeter of silicon -- customers didn't care, so long as the device met their price and performance expectations. Sure, one metric might feed the other, but it also might not. 99% of the people who you could in-person interview as they purchased their device at their chosen brick-and-mortar retailer couldn't even tell you how large the chips were on their devices, in the same way they couldn't tell you the "PC-equivalent" video card(s) which might be embedded in their chosen console.

Console manufacturers want to make the experience unique, and exotic hardware likely ends up making this even more difficult. As Moore's law continues to tamp down hardware performance gains, more and more of what will make a device truly interesting will be dictated by the software.
 
If so, I think that's a change in attitudes. In the past, marketing made a huge hoo-ha (a hooge-ha!) about the Power of the Consoles and shifted units based on that. Devs would get on board a new machine with its impossible hardware, lousy tools and foreign documentation because of the promise it had that they could be confident would produce a market. These days where all communication is visual and we can see exactly what we're getting in gameplay videos, that won't fly. I'm gonna look at your trailers and that's where you need to impress me. And no CGI 'concept renders' - you tried that and now you have to label what's in game and fake footage.
 
There's nothing to argue about. The next Xbox will be a PC, with PC games, so it will be a single game version. The difference will be shown in the fact that the games will be optimized according to a certain standard for the dedicated PC called Xbox and it will give a completely console-friendly concept.
 
@Andrew Lauritzen That's a very depressing interpretation that many developers are possibly going to be indeterminately bound on this current generation. With somewhat different hardware at a reasonable price there was at least some hope obsoleting older platforms by the virtue of developers being exhausted of having to maintain support for both of them but if the more expensive and familiar next generation systems are largely confined to offering a very similar set of software as the previous one then where does it leave them ?

Do you think or believe that having console platforms linger on indefinitely is progress ?
 
The question is whether there's a future for consoles with exotic bespoke hardware... not the other way around.. and I'd argue no, there isn't.
  • Minimizing risk is too important for this industry
  • R&D costs to develop new hardware/architectures + train employees
  • Game Engine convergence
  • Game development costs
  • Backwards and forwards compatibility is too important
  • Easier to innovate in other ways
 
I don't think the title of the thread represents all of the directions I intended to explore for the discussion like the poster above me thought ...
 
So then, ask some more questions that aren't about "why isn't anyone making exotic hardware for consoles?" I think that question is now fully answered.

What's next on your list?
 
Why wouldn't there be a future for consoles without exotic hardware? If any I think being more pc like is probably a necessity.

Since last gen, maybe even before that, I kind of see consoles as a pc you can't mess up. Most games are multi platform and kind of run similar enough on similar hardware that it makes no difference what you buy. A console will be for those that just want to spend 500~700 dollars knowing it will play all games released for it the next 6~8 years without having to do anything. I don't see that market really changing.

The couch experience of pc's still isn't that great and I say that as somebody who's moved his game pc to the living room. It's a lot of small things. Want to wake up your pc from sleep with an xbox controller? Gotta have the old wireless adapter. Controller turns the pc on, but disconnects before booting is finished so you gotta press the sync button again. Steam big picture is decent enough but can't do things like turn your pc to sleep, gotta add a separate script for that and run it as a "game". Want to install a new game? Well changes are it works, but often enough launching from Big Picture for the first time causes a lot of small issues etc.
 
I don’t feel exotic hardware has anything to do with it. When consoles were primarily offline and pc landscape was difficult from a hardware and services standpoint, the consoles held a unique advantage of plug n play and knowing games needed to be QC’d well as there’s no patches etc. There were plenty of games that never made it to a PC and when they did launch, it was many years later and more often if they bombed.

In 2024, building and owning a gaming PC is way less complicated. There are numerous stores and deals to be had due to competition. You’re also getting everything on Xbox day 1 and Sony has been consistently tending in that direction. Everyone likes to compare hardware equivalent prices but what’s the TCO of the platform when games are often cheaper and way quicker to drop in price than on consoles?

Consoles are now readily coming out with poor performing games at launch because they know every console is connected and games can be patched. A big advantage consoles had in the past, plug n play well QC’d games is gone.

Exotic hardware isn’t going to save consoles. Going back to the basics and giving people a hassle free experience is where the value of consoles will shine through. Something Nintendo still seems to focus on with their first party games even if most of the switch consoles are online.
 
The couch experience of pc's still isn't that great and I say that as somebody who's moved his game pc to the living room. It's a lot of small things. Want to wake up your pc from sleep with an xbox controller? Gotta have the old wireless adapter. Controller turns the pc on, but disconnects before booting is finished so you gotta press the sync button again. Steam big picture is decent enough but can't do things like turn your pc to sleep, gotta add a separate script for that and run it as a "game". Want to install a new game? Well changes are it works, but often enough launching from Big Picture for the first time causes a lot of small issues etc.
AFAIC, eventually PCs will become nearly just as tightly 'controlled' or locked down/closed in it's own environment very much like consoles are today so the sacred idea that consoles will somehow always convincingly prevail in terms of "user experience" against PCs won't even be true anymore when they are literally compatible with the near exact same set of both hardware and software so their operating environments will probably converge too!

Pretty soon you also won't even be able to claim that consoles will retain an "API/optimization advantage" which by itself was the major factor to keeping the hardware costs down but apparently no one wants to use unique hardware features anymore ... '

Consoles are virtually headed into obsolescence on their path to "becoming more like PCs" ...
 
Certainly there is a possibility that the design path hardware vendors ended up committing to wasn't necessarily optimal? How much of it is determined by software compatibility/legacy and conforming to arbitrary software standards(DX for example) vs developing the most efficient design possible? Ignoring the development cost benefits of having similar hardware across all markets, it would certainly be interesting to know the views on this by a variety of experts.
 
AFAIC, eventually PCs will become nearly just as tightly 'controlled' or locked down/closed in it's own environment very much like consoles are today so the sacred idea that consoles will somehow always convincingly prevail in terms of "user experience" against PCs won't even be true anymore when they are literally compatible with the near exact same set of both hardware and software so their operating environments will probably converge too!

Pretty soon you also won't even be able to claim that consoles will retain an "API/optimization advantage" which by itself was the major factor to keeping the hardware costs down but apparently no one wants to use unique hardware features anymore ... '

Consoles are virtually headed into obsolescence on their path to "becoming more like PCs" ...
You can also consider it not that consoles are becoming obsolete, but on the contrary, playing on a PC in the traditional sense is becoming more and more console-like, especially as far as the comfort factor and ease of use are concerned. The next level in the world of PCs will be that they will be packaged in a more compact, console-like housing and provide an even simpler user interface for those who just want to play. Actually, this is the transformation of the PC into a console.
 
Actually, this is the transformation of the PC into a console.
Ish. The OS needs to be pared back to something that just runs games. But you also lose the 'fixed hardware target' of a true console. For users it won't make much difference but for developers it does.
 
Ish. The OS needs to be pared back to something that just runs games. But you also lose the 'fixed hardware target' of a true console. For users it won't make much difference but for developers it does.
The Xbox will become one with the PC in the future, so the next console can only contain exotic hardware that is highly compatible with the mainstream PC hardware.
 
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