Is the end nigh? PC market freefall accelerates.

Discussion in 'Graphics and Semiconductor Industry' started by jimbo75, Apr 10, 2013.

  1. swaaye

    swaaye Entirely Suboptimal
    Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2003
    Messages:
    8,456
    Likes Received:
    578
    Location:
    WI, USA
    Whether Win8 sucks or not hasn't slowed down the laymen that I've talked to who have bought PCs recently. They don't even seem to whine about the quirks much. I think they may be more flexible than techies honestly. I have no doubt that some people even like the tile design.
     
  2. joker454

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2006
    Messages:
    3,819
    Likes Received:
    139
    Location:
    So. Cal.
    Yeah sometimes newer folk just adapt better. For example I have friends who used to program in the punch card days, hardcore guys that lived off the command line or switch panel, used every flavor of os over the decades yet they are having a hard time with Windows 8. On the other hand my 7 year old niece has no problem with it, and is able to navigate around it with greater ease than the old school folk can. It kind of reminds me of an article I vividly recall (and still may have in one of my old issues of Byte magazine) where Peter Norton went on about how real computer users don't need color. That was back when color monitors were starting to get more affordable hence many of us were considering upgrading from our amber/green displays, so of course many hardcore folk were coming forward saying how unnecessary it was. Kind of amusing to recall that now. Some made a similar stir over graphical interfaces compared to the command line world. I think sometimes the new younger users are just able to adapt better to the new modern interfaces.
     
  3. zed

    zed
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2005
    Messages:
    4,429
    Likes Received:
    623
    Yes older ppl are more resistant to change. Depends on the person (currently sitting on the platform waiting for the jungle train)
    Recently tried my first android (4.2) could see within 5mins it was superior to the is I was used to (iOS 5)
    As others have said. Different doesn't equal better. I'm not a fan of the old windows start menu. I've been saying for over a decade it should take up the whole screen. So when I iniatiallyheard about metro I was excited. But they've failed for the reasons ppl have outlined already.
     
  4. Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.

    Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2003
    Messages:
    6,363
    Likes Received:
    82
    It's not about Metro being different, it's about it being the wrong tool for the job. When it takes more clicks, screen changes, menu and keyboard options to do the same thing as Win 7, something has obviously gone wrong.

    I'm very adaptive, I'm happy to do something a new way if it's better, but a lot of what Win 8 does is worse. It's like it's all been dumbed down as if a PC is nothing but a big tablet or smartphone, when it's so much more. It's as if MS has decided that anyone who wants to run more than one thing at a time, or do more than just consume content or browse the web is now an "advanced power user" - and MS doesn't cater to them any more.

    The whole philosophy of forcing a touchscreen UI onto desktop PCs is just wrong.
     
  5. joker454

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2006
    Messages:
    3,819
    Likes Received:
    139
    Location:
    So. Cal.
    I dunno, Windows 8 for me works the same but that's because I tend to use keyboard shortcuts which they kept the same. So for example I never mouse clicked through the start menu on Win7 as apparently others do, I would hit windows key -> comm -> enter to run the command line for example, that works the same. To shut down or sleep I'd hit Alt-F4 on Win7, which is the same on Win8, and so on. So personally to me Win8 works the same as Win7. All the rest like faster os, app store, better task manager, better file copies, touch support etc are all bonus. Your mileage will vary of course but for me it's been the easiest os transition ever and the most stable os I've ever used. Using it on a touch laptop is a joy as well which is why I wanted to upgrade my Mac Air as I'm jealous of my wife's touchscreen dell flippy touch screen laptop, but I want better battery life before taking the plunge.
     
  6. Silent_Buddha

    Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2007
    Messages:
    16,052
    Likes Received:
    5,004
    Which isn't always true. I'm an old bugger and I love the changes to Win8 overall. At this point I think they'd have a riot on their hands if they removed the Modern UI start screen. It's just sooooo much better than the old start menu, IMO.

    The only thing I'd like to see is a more customizable layout for the start screen and the ability to have more differently sized (smaller) tiles.

    OMG, it now takes 1 click (keyboard or mouse, your choice) to get to the desktop. :D

    As to the rest. The only thing that takes me more clicks to get to is the shutdown/restart button. Grrrrrr, at them burying it.

    Otherwise, two keyboard shortcuts everyone should know. Windows Key for one key access to the start screen and Windows-X to easily access a whole slew of important features. Windows-X is another thing I can't live without now compared to Win7 and previous versions of Windows.

    Overall the more I use Win8, the more I realize just how much better than Win7 it is in almost all ways when it comes to smoothing out my workflow.

    Now if only I could convince MS to put the IE7/IE8 search field back into IE. :(

    Regards,
    SB
     
  7. Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.

    Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2003
    Messages:
    6,363
    Likes Received:
    82
    Everyone is saying "just use the keyboard", but what about those of us who want to use the mouse? You know, that thing sitting on the side of the keyboard on desktops for the last twenty years? It seems that everyone who really likes Win 8 is saying "Ignore the GUI, use the command line" which kind of says it all about the quality of the GUI with regards to workflow and ease of use.

    I mean really, trying to find a program that you want to run via a single mouse-click now involves keyboard shortcuts and text searches, remembering the exact executable name (rather than just having it presented to you), screen-fulls of unrelated metro icons to search through, etc.

    It's just really clunky and off-putting to have to do so much work just to get to the point of running a program from an icon on your desktop.

    What's worse, is it really wouldn't take much to fix, but MS seems to be ideologically fixed into this course of a touchscreen UI on the desktop.
     
  8. zed

    zed
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2005
    Messages:
    4,429
    Likes Received:
    623
    Alt f4 to shut down windows 8?
    OK
    Reboot pc.
    Wait until desktops showing.
    Alt f4
    ..... Nothing

    If I go click on desktop.
    Then press alt f4. I do get the shutdown menu.

    Its like in a diff forum. Some guy was arguing to see the desktop is so easy. Just press the win key.
    Granted often it works but sometimes it doesn't.
    Rule number 1 in good design.
    Be consistent.
    If something's consistently bad at least the person can adjust to it.
    Same in games.
    Eg say u press fire and it takes half a sec to shoot. I.e terrible programming but because its consistently bad the person expects it and can modify their behavior.
    If the gun shoots any time from instant to half a sec the player can't judge thus is passed off more.
    Moral.
    So eyes an gun with an average shoot speed of 0.25 secs is worse than a gun that takes on average 0.5secs
     
  9. jimbo75

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2010
    Messages:
    1,211
    Likes Received:
    0
    All the PC players appear to be under some delusion that Q3 is where it'll all turn around as people scramble for touch-screen Windows 8 desktops.

    I wonder if any of them did some market research on that because I don't know anybody who wants a touch-screen desktop (at least not at the current prices).
     
  10. UniversalTruth

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,747
    Likes Received:
    22
    It is actually very bad for all. Because there is no progress. Same here with me, when suddenly my laptop with Windows 7 became much more responsive than it had ever been before that.

    The lack of innovation is the major problem. As said multiple times, there isn't a clear differentiation between mobile devices such as tablets and smartphones which have more extras and are more appealing, and laptops/ PCs.

    If they want to push mobile sales, they have to sacrifice the laptop and PC ones.

    Give people already Ultra HD 8K television, gaming experience and you will see the opposite trend.
     
  11. joker454

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2006
    Messages:
    3,819
    Likes Received:
    139
    Location:
    So. Cal.
    These issues aren't unique to Windows 8. In OSx do all keyboard shortcuts work the same when you are looking at the desktop and when you are looking at your widgets? Does the top bar always represent commands available to the app you think is currently active? I can't be the only one in OSx that has clicked a command on the top bar thinking it will apply to one open app but actually it applied to another. Is Android consistent between os revisions and devices? Did Apple's changing of the little switch at the top of iPads from rotation lock to mute make people toss their iPads into the lake in frustration? When you are in desktop mode on Windows 8 it's, well, Windows. Use your mouse, use keyboard shortcuts as you always have. I just don't see the complication.


    Well I'm not here to defend this company, y'all can use and do what you want. If you find Windows 8 so complex then that's cool stick to Windows 7. I just really don't understand it, not when I see my 7 year old niece have no issue with it, and I get even more confused when hardcore guys that are used to creat awk grep'ing their way thru an os are suddenly flummoxed when a small start ball is removed. In any case I still don't believe Windows 8 is at the root of pc problems, certainly not when anyone can just buy a new machine and reinstall their existing Windows 7 license on it if Windows 8 is so terrifying. I still think it's because hardware manufacturers have given people little reason to upgrade and/or there isn't much software out there that demands new hardware aside from games.
     
  12. Malo

    Malo Yak Mechanicum
    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2002
    Messages:
    6,978
    Likes Received:
    3,061
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    You can't install an existing Windows 7 license if it's OEM. And most HP's, Dell's etc are all OEM licenses.
     
  13. UniversalTruth

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,747
    Likes Received:
    22
    Because the young generation is more adaptable and honestly I am sure your niece can't realise what is the better.

    You lower the significance of such an important component in Windows? :shock:

    Windows 8 is an ugly step backwards in almost every regard except perhaps the negligible performance increase which is not enough to compensate and I am sure almost no one cares.

    No one should learn a new ugly user interface with every new version of Windows just because some people in the corporation lost their minds :evil: :roll:

    But yeah, you are right- the problem of PC decline has nothing to do with Windows 8 itself.
     
  14. Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.

    Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2003
    Messages:
    6,363
    Likes Received:
    82

    Win 8 not "complex" or "terrifying", it's just a worse tool for the job, like trying to make do with a pocket knife when a screwdriver is what you really need. I'm sure your niece has no problems because she's basically clicking a big pretty button to run a program and not much else. I guess that's the new MS demographic and why sales of Win 8 have been tanking like no one has ever seen before for a new MS OS.
     
  15. joker454

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2006
    Messages:
    3,819
    Likes Received:
    139
    Location:
    So. Cal.
    I've re-installed it on new hardware and called Microsoft, they had no problem activating the license again. Done that more than once over the years, has anyone here actually tried to do that, or do people just repeat what others say is Fact (tm) on forums?


    Well to me it hasn't changed, it works as it always has. As in I press windows key, type a few letters of what I want to run, then hit enter. That's how I've always used the start functionality. Now that has improved for me in Windows 8 because of the live tiles, so now I'll hit Windows key just to see the tiles and get updates on various information on how I have my tiles setup. A very cool feature of Windows 8, to me anyways, it's basically like a much improved/useful version of OSx's widgets. Apparently though I'm supposed to think that's worthless because the interweb says so, even though it's a feature I use every day.


    Windows 8 looks great to me, so what can I say? I like it and I'm glad they are going in that direction. I think people will accept it once Apple copies it.


    I just don't see it that way, I like Windows 8 better personally and would never go back to Windows 7. Especially when used on a touch laptop, it's just far better than Windows 7 to me. But even on desktop, heck I'd switch to it just for the new task manager and file copy functionality alone, let alone all the rest. To each their own, use what you like but there's no way in hell I'm downgrading back to Windows 7, no thanks.
     
  16. UniversalTruth

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2010
    Messages:
    1,747
    Likes Received:
    22
    You are from the minority. Which sometimes is the better option but not in this case.
     
  17. Grall

    Grall Invisible Member
    Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2002
    Messages:
    10,801
    Likes Received:
    2,172
    Location:
    La-la land
    I called MS's automatic talking-machine-number to reactivate a Dell OEM version of winvista for use on another, non-Dell (self-built) PC. Worked just fine.

    Cool on you if you like it; I think it's shit, because the tile interface completely covers up everything else. That's complete bullcrap, there's no reason for it and it doesn't fit in a desktop OS, especially if one - like me - have a 1440P-rez display that can fit a lot more than some POS-looking oddly colored tiles.
     
  18. joker454

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2006
    Messages:
    3,819
    Likes Received:
    139
    Location:
    So. Cal.
    That's only true if you believe pc sales are down due to Windows 8....which I don't believe is the case at all. Even if new machines had Windows 7 there is still precious little reason to upgrade any hardware bought in the past 3 years, or even 5 years in some peoples cases.


    That's cool, but to claim that Everyone Hates It (tm) is wrong because some people like me actually like it. Plus for me it doesn't cover up everything anyways since my desktop has two displays. My Mac Air is a 1440p display like yours and I like there as well, although I like it much more on my wife's touch screen Dell laptop.
     
  19. silent_guy

    Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2006
    Messages:
    3,754
    Likes Received:
    1,379
    It's not about us, old awk using farts, not being able to learn it. It's about having to use an interface that grates left and right. It just feels bad. The shutdown button that's hidden in an impossibly illogic place (Settings???). The Jekyll and Hyde dual mode interface etc.

    They managed to make people resent that thing even if it doesn't make a major difference in day to day life.

    It's similar to that software that I'm using today: every few hours, I do this operation that results in a redundant dialog box which requires me to press 'Ok'. It costs me a second or 2 to click it, but, boy, does it annoy me. Win8 is full of that.
     
  20. swaaye

    swaaye Entirely Suboptimal
    Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2003
    Messages:
    8,456
    Likes Received:
    578
    Location:
    WI, USA
    MS seems to have fired the guy (Sinofsky) who pushed the Win8 ideas like a mad man. I think the future will bring some changes. So lets move on k! :)
     
Loading...

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...