Is Final Fantasy as we knew it, dead?

[passerby]

Been following Japanese coverage, opinions and impressions of games via their magazines and websites. From what I can gather, FF7 was deemed the turning point that actually rocketed the series to new heights of success. If N people hated the new direction, 10*N people liked it - a lot of newcomers. So the direction is pretty much here to stay.

The problem is that most, if not all jap rpg-developers simply haven't got good enough writers to write character-based stories that are acutally convincing.

I blame it on the need to appeal to teenagers by focusing on adolescent lead characters, with bits of pubescent elements(script, plot, the love story[urgh!]) sprinkled throughout. You end up with a plot/script that's trying to be serious/matured yet patronize the teens. In other words, it can be very unpleasent sometimes.

Squall in VIII managed to be even more obnoxious than Cloud

Squall's cool. 8) Much more interesting than a lot of characters I played in many games.

Imho they should just cut out all the (pseudo) serious/dark/mature/psychological stuff and instead deliver these simple but great swashbuckling stories again,

That's what Dragon Quest is for. Still waiting for my import to arrive.

But I enjoy both types of games. So I am the winner!

 

[Blade]

3dilettante: I still find it unbelievable what Square was able to squeeze into FF6's 3 megabytes of storage space.

FF7 needs.. what.. 4 CD's?

 

[London Geezer]

3dilettante: I still find it unbelievable what Square was able to squeeze into FF6's 3 megabytes of storage space.

FF7 needs.. what.. 4 CD's?

I must say, i'm often amazed at how the size of games increased exponentially from generation to generation, especially from 16 to 32bit.
I mean, when looking at emulation ROMS, 8-16bit games were tiny, compared to today's or even previous gen games. And they're tiny even compared to some, say, Word documents which contain MUCH less "real" data...

 

[jvd]

3dilettante: I still find it unbelievable what Square was able to squeeze into FF6's 3 megabytes of storage space.

FF7 needs.. what.. 4 CD's?

And i'm sure the actual game fit in 3 megabytes too. The other room was used for fmv which did nothing but take away from the actual gameplay .

Ohh i took 10 steps ... pretty video !!!

Honestly i don't see and never will see what the big deal is about ff7. I even went out and bought a second psone (first one died a year and a half after being bought) so that i could play it. Talk about disapointment

 

[Nick Spolec]

Bah.

Final Fantasy was ruined the day Square felt they needed to completely change the style of the game/story telling to fit the new generation of consoles (PSX).

Look at what Enix did with Dragon Quest 7. Dragon Quest/Warrior 7 is probably one of the best RPG's there is, and it made the move to 32bit in a seamless, perfect manner. And that's simply because Enix didn't f*ck with the style that made the series so good in the first place. Even with the partial move to 3D, it still felt like a good ole Dragon Quest game. The same could be said for the Breath of Fire games (even though they aren't as good). After playing Dragon Quest 6 (thanks to the translation), Dragon Warrior 7 felt like a perfect sequel.

FF7 was where the Final Fantasy series turned downhill. It was just such a departure from the rest of the series. It's hard to even put into words what is wrong with the game.. The focus on CGI movies to tell the story was a horrid decision. But that wasn't it.

The worse part had to the actual storyline itself, and the characters that were apart of it.

The story of FF6 was a sprawling, branching epic. Each character had a story to tell, and they all fit into the main plot. The character's were likable, and you could care for them. But also, the world of FF6 was interesting, with lots do.

FF7 was just one hell of a boring game. It had a DULL cast, DULL world, DULL towns, and really a DULL storyline. It was very limited in what you could do/see (unless you count the "mini-games").

There was just so much to like in FF6. It had variety.. That was something sorely lacking in FF7.

P.S. I just hope that the Square/Enix merger/sale/whatever doesn't fuck with a good thing --- Dragon Quest. I could imagine Square getting ahold of it, and filling it with 80 hours of cgi movie and 10 hours of gameplay.

 

[Johnny Awesome]

The stories actually suck in these games IMO. The only reason to play a FF game is for the cool turn-based battles. I found FFX to be amusing as long as I tuned out the plot/character crap which was infantile (like MGS).

 

[Sonic]

Final Fantasy VII is my favorite as it was just a major departure from the rest of the FF games. FF VI is my second favorite but somehow it doesn't compete with the magic of VII. It's going to be a tough feat for Square to get the new FF VII derived games to be as good as the first. I'm still curious to see what CC will be.

 

[zurich]

God, way to hijack the thread guys! :?

Well, since we're on this topic, I'll repeat what I've said earlier about the"CG killed the final fantasy star" whiners.

What do you think the sprites were doing in the SNES games, hopping and spinning around in circles for 10-15 minutes at a time? Yes - THOSE WERE CUT SCENES. You could not skip them. They lasted just as long, if not LONGER than any PSOne Final Fantasy CG cut scene. If you don't like anything after VI, blame it on the 3D graphics, art style, whatever, but don't take the position of "relying on CG to tell the story," because that's just rose-tinted nostalgia clouding your memory (and is also a huge load of crap).

 

[3dilettante]

I don't personally believe CG cut scenes are the cause of the change in story lines. It's more that the technology finally allowed the tendencies of the developers to manifest themselves.

It's more like the Final Fantasy we thought we knew existed in part because of limitations of the medium, and once the medium improved, the Final Fantasy the creators invisioned all along became possible.

Perhaps the vision of the old final fantasy we thought we knew depended more on our interpretation of a less precise platform.

With better graphics and larger storage, it was easier for the creators to define their vision in much stricter terms, which made it much easier to tread over people's expectations.

 

[Almasy]

So much FF hate....it´s ridiculous. Most complaints certainly are, at least. As someone said it first, WTF do people think those jumping sprites in scenes with dialogue are? Those are( incredibly crude) cutscenes. The PS era finally allowed Square to create games that are much more in line with their original vision, that´s all.

Square´s "backstab" (which actually was about Nintendo being pricks and not choosing CDs, despite Square´s begging) still burns Nintendo fans, it seems...or maybe it´s just nostalgia, it truly is amazing how much petty nostalgia can screw up people´s perception.

 

[oi]

If we're gonna discuss a downfall of a series, Seiken Densetsu is alot more appropriate than Final Fantasy imo heh.

And yeah, I don't really see how anyone could say that watching Kefka jumping and spinning around in all his 16bit glory while making strange noises for 5 minutues is great, but the cutscenes of the newer FF games suck and somehow take away from the gameplay.

 

[CeiserSöze]

The stories actually suck in these games IMO. The only reason to play a FF game is for the cool turn-based battles. I found FFX to be amusing as long as I tuned out the plot/character crap which was infantile (like MGS).

I wouldn't say that the stories in these games altogether suck. Of course, they suck when you compare them to some higher standard. But that is beside the point and would be the same as saying the stories of StarWars IV-VI and Indiana Jones suck. In other words: In their "old" form as lighthearted "save the world from bad empire/madman/whatever" adventures, the stories worked and were plain fun. However, they started to suck as soon as developers vainly aspired to the greater heights of storytelling and tried to make their stories more serious, add more (so-called) depth to them etc. (usually with disastrous results). I can enjoy a simple, straight good vs. evil story, as it doesn't need a lot to be entertaining/fun/thrilling. It does, however, need a lot more than the unbearable and pretentious pseudo-philosophical babble that became so popular with FFVII (and MGS too, which is even worse in this regard btw) to make a story interesting/complex/challenging.

Well, in a way, they are challenging, as it's definitely a challenge to read through all of these abysmal dialogues without losing your higher brain functions

 

[Phil]

:? Opinions obviously do differ and while I haven't been a Final Fantasy follower until recently, I must say that I enjoyed all the FFs I have played so far. That also includes Final Fantasy X and Final Fantasy X-2. Admittedly, there are things I missed with those two games that I loved in FFVII (and now FFIX) - but it made up in other areas (i.e. Music).

I suppose different people play the FF games for different reasons: for me, it's the detail that I love... everything from the compost music to the story-telling and the love and attention to detail in every single character that makes it a joy playing the games. I enjoy those old, random battles... it's fun because you get to level up and grin when you know you have the upper hand (because you just spend hours just leveling up). It's fun wandering around looking for more of those extra details... hidden story plots, special weapons/add-ons. The thing I love about the FF games is that it's one huge world with everything in place evolving around a story that just wants me to play on and on... from this angle, the FF games have not failed me so far and I look forward to every new iteration for as long as they give me exactly that.

(For the record, I have played the games in following order: Final Fantasy VII (in 2001), Final Fantasy X (2002), Final Fantasy X-2 (2004), Final Fantasy IX (today)). Still looking for english (PAL) versions of FFVIII and FFVII as well as Chrono Cross and Final Fantasy tactics.

 

[cthellis42]

I find the term 'jap' quite offensive. Please use Japanese in full or JPN as abbreviation.

why is that so? yup, jpn is the abbreviation i should use. its just that jap appeared so frequently for me that i kindda lost jpn.

"Jap" is a term many people use when trying to be offensive, so it pretty much twists anyone else using it as a simple abbreviation as well. Typified mostly by disgruntled people of the WWII generation (my grandmother still says this ), but regardless--it's best avoided.

 

[see colon]

And yeah, I don't really see how anyone could say that watching Kefka jumping and spinning around in all his 16bit glory while making strange noises for 5 minutues is great, but the cutscenes of the newer FF games suck and somehow take away from the gameplay.

not to single you out oi, this is just a great quote. cut scenes like this are fine, as are the equivilents in the newer (psx and above) FF titles. its the *enter a new area, watch cinimatic of camera panning over area (that imho 70% of the time had no value other than to take up space on the media and time from my life). walk through area. repeat* type cinematic that turned me off. my main complaint with the modern FF titles has to do with art direction and storytelling anyway. but the occasional cut scene didn't kill FF for me, it was the constant bombartment of "look we have space to waste on thes 4 disks* cut scenes that IMHO have little or nothing to do with the game that annoyed me, and distracted me from the already weak plot.

but as i was saying before, i'm old and jaded.

 

[jvd]

RIght.


Watching the sprits or polygon models i've been using to wage war against the bad guys for 40 hours is great.

But if in ff1 they went from the sprite based engine to cgi cut scenes you can bet that would take away from the game. IT breaks the reality of the game . Not only that but to stop the game to load the cut scene then to drop from the cut scene to load the game back up takes away too.


I much rather have a sprite jumping around than an fmv movie .

 

[London Geezer]

RIght.


Watching the sprits or polygon models i've been using to wage war against the bad guys for 40 hours is great.

But if in ff1 they went from the sprite based engine to cgi cut scenes you can bet that would take away from the game. IT breaks the reality of the game . Not only that but to stop the game to load the cut scene then to drop from the cut scene to load the game back up takes away too.


I much rather have a sprite jumping around than an fmv movie .

You are one crazy man.

 

[CeiserSöze]

I had one single issue with all the fmv in the 32bit-FFs (although it's definitely not the central issue that made me not to like them): inconsitency. In FFVIII - FFIX you had three different models for every main character: A low-polygon model for the 2D-screens, a not-as-low-but-still-low-poly model for the battles and an incredibly detailed, cgi-rendered model for the fmvs. As the differences between real time and prerendered were simply huge at that time, I found this rather irritating at times. Imho, a game should try to be as consistent as possible in its visual style. To me, it broke the immersion when, one minute, I was looking at a low-detail realtime-model and, the next minute, there was an incredibly detailed cgi-version on the screen. But apart from that, I had no qualms with the heavy usage of fmv. Thankfully, as more powerful hardware arrives, this problem will diminish and, ultimately, disappear completely
Sadly, more powerful hardware will not turn the developers into better writers 8)

 

[Tagrineth]

I had one single issue with all the fmv in the 32bit-FFs (although it's definitely not the central issue that made me not to like them): inconsitency. In FFVIII - FFIX you had three different models for every main character: A low-polygon model for the 2D-screens, a not-as-low-but-still-low-poly model for the battles and an incredibly detailed, cgi-rendered model for the fmvs. As the differences between real time and prerendered were simply huge at that time, I found this rather irritating at times. Imho, a game should try to be as consistent as possible in its visual style. To me, it broke the immersion when, one minute, I was looking at a low-detail realtime-model and, the next minute, there was an incredibly detailed cgi-version on the screen. But apart from that, I had no qualms with the heavy usage of fmv. Thankfully, as more powerful hardware arrives, this problem will diminish and, ultimately, disappear completely
Sadly, more powerful hardware will not turn the developers into better writers 8)

Actually, unlike FF8, FF7 used the realtime models for several cutscenes. Only certain majour cutscenes used the high-res versions of the models.

 

[CeiserSöze]

Actually, unlike FF8, FF7 used the realtime models for several cutscenes. Only certain majour cutscenes used the high-res versions of the models.

I know, but I found this a bit strange too. E.g. the cutscene in the begining when Cloud jumps on the train, it looked sorta, don't know, odd or out of sync; the same with the scene in the mountains where the bridge collapses etc. But maybe this was only a glitch in the PC-version, which I played (never got my hands on the PSX-version). The 3D-models upon a 2D-background worked fairly well with the static backgrounds though. At least this whole issue has been solved thanks to more powerful hardware, as seen in Baten Kaitos (incredibly beautiful game, btw ).