IPv6, Consoles and gaming networks

Grall said:
That's a pretty big assumption. It's been known for years that IP4 addresses will run out basically any time now, that sony would not be on the ball with an IP6 solution out the door would be very, very strange. They've had all the time in the world to prepare for it, and the need for it is literally imminent.
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Okay, let me clarify, they wont do IPv6 at launch. They will have to do it at sometime, but currently only about 2% of traffic is on IPv6 at Google, so they do not have to now! Very few things would make me happier than if when I plug in my PS4 on 29th of November (fingers crossed) it will use IPv6 instead of IPv4.

What is the Sony gameplan? Do dual-stack when more people are on IPv6? Or will they do as MS, use Teredo/Miredo for connectivity across IPv4?

MS could have done dual-stack now, but why Teredo instead? Is it easier to only do IPv6 and then stick on a "IPv4 Teredo" header instead of doing dual-stack?

For instance:

Alice, Bob and Charlie are playing and need to have P2P connections to each other.

Alice on IPv6 only
Bob on IPv4 only
Charlie is dual-stacked

Is it more work to keep Charlie connected to Bob and Alice on IPv6 and IPv4, than just use IPv6 and let a Teredo relay somewhere fix the conversion? My assumption is yes and when everybody is on IPv6, automatically Teredo will not be used with no updates etc from MS nor the game developer.
 
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Aren't all mobile devices on ip6 already? And I thought there were some advantages to not having to use NAT and such?
 
JPT said:
What is the Sony gameplan? Do dual-stack when more people are on IPv6? Or will they do as MS, use Teredo/Miredo for connectivity across IPv4?.
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Well IF all they have now is IPv4 then applications written against todays SDK won't use IPv6, which means going dual stack later wouldn't help existing apps, ideally they would have to bridge IPv4 over IPv6 somehow.

Similarly I expect that MS uses IPv6 over IPv4 today so developers only have to support a single network stack and they assume at somepoint in the XBone lifetime IPv6 will be a requirement.
 
Arwin said:
Aren't all mobile devices on ip6 already? And I thought there were some advantages to not having to use NAT and such?
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There are many advantages there is no debate about that. Problem that needed solving was how IPv6 and IPv4 hosts talk to each other.

As for mobile, it depends upon the provider, some have it others do not. And the phones are also not uniform in their support. I heard from 3 in Sweden that Sony Experia phones worked great, while Samsung was less than stellar. Which is a problem for 3, since few buy Sony and many buy Samsung.
 
ERP said:
Well IF all they have now is IPv4 then applications written against todays SDK won't use IPv6, which means going dual stack later wouldn't help existing apps, ideally they would have to bridge IPv4 over IPv6 somehow.
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Worst case you will not be able to play some games if you are on IPv6 Only sometime in the future. Or they need to patch their stack so that for games it looks just the same regardless of the peer being on IPv4 or IPv6.

ERP said:
Similarly I expect that MS uses IPv6 over IPv4 today so developers only have to support a single network stack and they assume at somepoint in the XBone lifetime IPv6 will be a requirement.
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Yes, that is why they went with Teredo, its proven, but not sure how it will handle the load of a bunch of X1. Then again P2P traffic might be light for the X1.
 
JPT said:
L
Problem shows up when you do Teredo to native IPv6 host, because at that time it has to go through relays, which converts between Teredo and "pure" IPv6, these relays needs lots of bandwith, cpu and memory and preferably distributed evenly around the world.
Worst case imaginary scenario, I could be in Oslo, Norway, playing with my neighbor. We use two different ISP's. One supports IPv6 native the other not. Then our traffic needs to go trough a relay that might be in New York or Amsterdam (not likely but still).
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ipv6-ops list and the link provided by adev to the internet society web page, clarifies this bit.
Teredo on Xbox One will not use relays between IPv6 and IPv4 hosts.
 
I've been hoping and praying that Sony would support IPv6 from day one on PS4. It's way, way too late in the day to be releasing a device with a ten year lifespan without having a solid IPv6 plan in place.

The FreeBSD kernel has supported Teredo since 2003, so Sony has no excuse not to support it. I'd really hope that Sony would use IPv6 in any APIs they are giving to developers which expose IP addresses, but I've never heard that they did anything at all with IPv6 for Vita.. ;-(

JPT, I've not actually implemented anything with IPv6 yet (though I took an IPv6 class back in 1996 and built support for IPv6 addressing in my directory management software).. does Teredo work out of the box with the kind of NATting that typical retail routers support?

EDIT: I've read Microsoft's document on their IPv6 implementation in XBox One and read the ietf discussion list discussing the Microsoft announcement. Teredo is explicitly designed to work with common NAT devices, so it sounds like a reasonable way to go.
 
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jonabbey said:
does Teredo work out of the box with the kind of NATting that typical retail routers support?
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In general it works fine for most NAT types, symmetric it does not work well with. I am not sure how many home gateways/routers actually use symmetric NAT.

Another issue are CGN/LSN where multiple people share an v4 ip and just have a handfull of ports. And stuff like 6rd and ds-lite, where fragmentation can become an issue. Especially since many NAT implementations have had lots of problems with fragmentet IP UDP packets, have debug to many IPSec connections that failed due to strange NAT implementations. Add SPI firewalls that also can easily mess up fragmented IP UDP packets.

So even if most of this is tested at quite a large scale and it is interesting how the RTC properties will be affected and how service provider networks deals with the increase of Teredo traffic.

Worst case scenario, is that they have some sort of breakage when it comes to Teredo which means that P2P with Xbox One won't work. I am seriously not looking forward to calls from our ISP customers trying to blame anybody but themselves on why P2P on Xbox One does not work :) But hey this gives me a reason to import an X1 when it launches and I can expense it :D
 
Well, I got home network up on IPv6 this weekend using a Hurricane Electric tunnel. It actually works, so, neat. Hopefully my the ISPs will get their native support deployed soon.
 
jonabbey said:
Well, I got home network up on IPv6 this weekend using a Hurricane Electric tunnel. It actually works, so, neat. Hopefully my the ISPs will get their native support deployed soon.
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Its dead easy, except for when you need to fork-lift your whole nationwide network infrastructure :D
 
Seems that IPv6 is getting to be "faster" than IPv4.

https://ripe67.ripe.net/presentations/115-2013-10-16-ipv6-launch-365.pdf

Cut & Paste from the slidedeck :

When it works, IPv6 is working far better than a year ago
– It’s often faster in RTT terms than IPv4! (Which seems counter-intuitve)
– And its generally no more that 25% slower than IPv4 in terms of relative RTT in times between the same two endpoints.
Click to expand...


So Xbox One people time to get on the horn to your ISP and demand IPv6. :D
 
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Bufferbloat with IPv6 on consoles? I have no information in regards to the console makers, but I did not understand your question in regards to the video.
 
Sorry, i mean if console makers have active bufferbloat mitigation plans. Or in the case of Sony with FreeBSD if they are implementing Byte Queue Limits or FQ-CODEL?
 
brunogm said:
Sorry, i mean if console makers have active bufferbloat mitigation plans. Or in the case of Sony with FreeBSD if they are implementing Byte Queue Limits or FQ-CODEL?
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I am not in the console business, so I have no clue.

But if you want to mitigate bufferbloat, you get good results by doing it on your router/gw etc. And do not use WLAN from your console to the router.

As mentioned in the video, CeroWRT and I think newer versions of OpenWRT should be looked into. With that said, bufferbloat is an issue when you fill up your pipe, if you disconnect everybody else from the internet, you will get less lag to :D
 
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