iPhone/Zune/iPod & More Prediction Thread

[Ailuros]

There's a healthy portion of Transputer legacy also in IMG, so careful what you want to say you rotten all time lurker LOL

Anyway something relatively OT but interesting nonetheless:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/other/...dware_Accelerated_3D_Graphics_on_the_Web.html

 

[Ailuros]

Geez I swear I hadn't read that link before I made my post on the former page LOL:

http://www.eetimes.eu/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=219100143&cid=NL_eeteu

Graphics core licensor Imagination Technologies Group plc (Kings Langley, England) is making a push to persuade chip companies to license its Meta multithreading processor as a housekeeping and operating system host in system-chips for multimedia devices.

 

[JohnH]

...
well, i never said the classic GPU does not hold the speed and/or efficiency crown at graphics. all i said was that if it only does that then it'd have less value to me than something else that does graphics not so well, but which is also usable in a bunch of other task domains. as re OpenCL, while it has clear provisions for GPUs, it does not limit itself to GPUs only.

GPUs are not only good at graphics, they're also good at OpenCL i.e. they are usable for a bunch of "other" things without compromising graphics performance.

regardless, i'd be very interested in a handheld that features OpenCL. i'm not seeing one coming, though. for instance, apple, the big adopter of the API, are quite stingent when it comes to fully exposing the programmable features of their beautiful fenced garden (vertex shaders on the VGP, anybody?). i'd love to be proven wrong, though.

I can't comment on Apples intentions but you need to bear in mind that VGP on MBX is a non standard HW specific API extension, OpenCL is a ratified standard API & Language.

it may just as well seem from aside that i'm jumping the gun, but from my perspective i'm just hopeful that they (creative) may be actually taking steps in the general direction i think these devices will move on in the future. IOW, i'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. i'll also be checking that first-hand as i've pre-ordered their SDK kit.

Benifit of the doubt is fine but from the limited inmformation available to date I think its hard not to be pessimistic in my opinion. Quite happy to be proven wrong.

i'm taking you're asking me how i see the power of devices like the iphone in the context of their daily use?

i find them fairly adequate power-wise (the GS clearly more so. when it comes to graphics, at least). it's what tasks i can (respectively, cannot) use them for that bothers me. that latter is usually a resuilt of the platform's hardware *and* software features and policies, of course. or from a dev's perspective, it's the hardware and its 'de-facto' programmable features.

as it stands, the iphone GS' fairly-power-adequate GPU currently gives me a fancy GUI (which the the old MBX does almost as well), and the odd es2-tailored game (not yet, but any time now). it also allows me to do es2.x R&D, but for that i have to be sitting at my desk, with the device hooked to my desktop - nothing mobile there - for the purpose i could just as well use an emulator. and when you think of it, its transistor budget is comparable to the device's CPU. so why am i carrying all those transitors around, when i could be carrying an equal, but more useful bunch of them?

Simple, because most people are not happy with merely adequate. Seriously, use an iPhone 3GS and then try and move back to a 3G, you'll find your expectations as to what is adequate will have moved up a significant notch.

As I've said before, you need to reach a base level of performance before can start compromising certain areas for the sake of additional (unnecessary) flexibility. Handheld is currently some way of hitting that base performance, in fact due to power and size constraints its likely to remain short of that performance point for some time.

why shouldn't we? i find the adequacy criterion quite practical. we're not talking art or sports here, we're talking use and function.

Sorry, but I think you need a reality check, "adequate" does not sell chips or gain you market share, pushing the boundaries is what drives markets forwards, if you don't push someone else will.

John.

 

[wco81]

Among the previews for the Zune HD in the last couple of days were claims -- not official ones yet -- that Tegra can deliver MP3 playback which last days, like even over a week?

Hype or possible?

 

[darkblu]

ok, i don't want to further hijack this thread, so i'll just make one comment on a subject that concerns me.

I can't comment on Apples intentions but you need to bear in mind that VGP on MBX is a non standard HW specific API extension, OpenCL is a ratified standard API & Language.

yes. at the same time OpenCL would be a major endeavor to bring to a hanheld, in comparison to which said IMG extension would have been a non-effort. incidentally, that extension also happens to make the MBX a good deal more useful than it is at its current exposure level - something i'm sure apple have known from the get go. so tell me again why i should be expecting apple to give us openCL on the GS and why i should not pay attention to other offerings like creative's product, that make bold, perhaps naive, strides in that direction.

see, i'm not attacking the GPU, and even less so the SGX in particular - far from that - i've ordered a pandora just on the premise of getting intimate with and making full use of that particular GPU. i cannot accept, though, that apple's application of this tech is the most the hardware can do for me (us, the industry), and in this line of thoughts, that devices like the iphone are what i could be best hoping for. sorry, John, i'm just not buying it. yes, maybe from aside it seems i'm getting ahead of your ideal 'baseline performance' curve, but i think i seek nothing out of our current reach.

ps: i'll surely report back on the zii's power efficiency once i have it.

 

[Arun]

Among the previews for the Zune HD in the last couple of days were claims -- not official ones yet -- that Tegra can deliver MP3 playback which last days, like even over a week? Hype or possible?

Definitely possible, although the precise numbers depend on the battery size and the DAC used. NV claims 100-130 hours for smartphones and 600 hours for netbooks; the difference between the two is exclusively the size of the battery since both assume the screen is off etc...

Wolfson has revealed that the Zune HD uses their power management silicon, whereas MS has confirmed it also uses a Wolfson DAC. Therefore, it's most likely based on either the WM8351 or the WM8352, which also support the APX 2600 according to the list on Wolfson's own site: http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/productListings/powermanagement - alternatively, it could be a combo of the recently announced WM8310 and another DAC.

For optimal power consumption, you want a higher-end DAC such as Wolfson's WM8903 or Cirrus' CS42L55. My impression is that it's not very likely the Zune HD uses that, so I certainly wouldn't expect 130 hours - and given that PMP batteries are usually smaller than smartphone batteries, I probably wouldn't even expect 100 hours. But we'll see, and it should still be a very high number compared to existing products.

On that note, better poof again!

 

[Lazy8s]

I've been wondering if the processing demands of future mobiles wouldn't be better served by a META architecture processor instead of an ARM.

I expect Pure will expand META's deployment as they start expanding their own product line, and recent PowerVR video cores already integrate an MTX microcontroller.

 

[Ailuros]

I've been wondering if the processing demands of future mobiles wouldn't be better served by a META architecture processor instead of an ARM.

I expect Pure will expand META's deployment as they start expanding their own product line, and recent PowerVR video cores already integrate an MTX microcontroller.

I can't imagine META replacing the CPU for such a scenario, but rather complement the CPU for multimedia tasks for example.

 

[Ailuros]

see, i'm not attacking the GPU, and even less so the SGX in particular - far from that - i've ordered a pandora just on the premise of getting intimate with and making full use of that particular GPU. i cannot accept, though, that apple's application of this tech is the most the hardware can do for me (us, the industry), and in this line of thoughts, that devices like the iphone are what i could be best hoping for. sorry, John, i'm just not buying it. yes, maybe from aside it seems i'm getting ahead of your ideal 'baseline performance' curve, but i think i seek nothing out of our current reach.

ps: i'll surely report back on the zii's power efficiency once i have it.

Well as I said if you'd want a multimedia only solution for a mobile phone the better place to look for within IMG's IP portofolio would be a META GPP. Coincidentally it seems that it's the actual direction IMG is planning to drive META into for the foreseeable future.

For a multimedia only device a general purpose processor is better suited and I'm still wondering why you two haven't reached yet common ground. Since both of you seem to repeatedly throw the iPhone 3GS into the mix, it's by far not intended as a multimedia only device; IMHO Apple knows exactly what its doing and they are in the longrun building themselves up in the handheld gaming market. And no for that a pathetic multimedia only thingy isn't by far good enough.

 

[AzBat]

Yes, that's the Zune HD & yes, that looks like Windows Mobile running on it.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/10/zune-hd-hits-fcc-in-prolific-photo-shoot-16gb-and-32gb-capaciti/

Tommy McClain

 

[Ike Turner]

Yes, that's the Zune HD & yes, that looks like Windows Mobile running on it.


Tommy McClain

That's Windows CE not Mobile. The Zune UI runs "on top" of CE. And Windows Mobile is a a subset of Windows CE. WM6.X = CE 5.2 kernel, WM7 = CE 7 "chelan" kernel. IIRC the Zunes are based on CE 6.

 

[AzBat]

That's Windows CE not Mobile. The Zune UI runs "on top" of CE. And Windows Mobile is a a subset of Windows CE. WM6.X = CE 5.2 kernel, WM7 = CE 7 "chelan" kernel. IIRC the Zunes are based on CE 6.

technically you're correct, but to most people WindowsCE is no longer in the public eye.

BTW...

http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/10/zune-hd-on-screen-keyboard-and-browser-caught-on-camera/

Neato, frito!

Tommy McClain

 

[Arun]

Looks like I was right, it's indeed the WM8352 PMU/Audio codec. Not the lowest-power audio codec to drive Tegra, but it's cost efficient and probably good enough. I can't make out what the chip on the right is; might be the AR6002 in BGA form (weird, I'd expect WLCSP) or, well, practically anything else.

 

[Richard]

Loving the bulge on the key row when you press it. Btw, Neowin puts this at $220 for the 16gb and $290 for the 32gb version.

 

[AzBat]

Loving the bulge on the key row when you press it. Btw, Neowin puts this at $220 for the 16gb and $290 for the 32gb version.

Great price. Here's confirmation at release date (Sept 15) & packaging...

http://gizmodo.com/5335353

Any guesses at how well their launch will go provided the pricing is right?

I think it will do a lot better than previous models, but somehow I think the lack of a phone will keep people jumping from the Apple ship. I just wished they had demoed the games & marketplace features. What's taking them so long?

Tommy McClain

 

[wco81]

So they seem to be underlining the HD aspect. HD Radio doesn't seem to be going anywhere. So HD video, how much is that dock and how much is HD content?

How easy will it be to load it with your own HD content, ripped Blu-Rays especially? Lets face it, PMPs would never be as popular as they are now if people couldn't at least easily rip their disc collections.

Finally they have to have a games and app. story, if not on day 1, then in the foreseeable future.

Are they going to roll this out internationally? If they announce plans to release in Europe say in a month or two after US launch, then it'll be a good indication of how confident and ambitious their strategy is.

 

[AzBat]

I wouldn't plan on an International release unless the demand explodes over here in the US. If MS can't do well here, there's no way they'll do well outside the country.

BTW, Engadget has some new pics & a glorious video hands-on...

http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/11/zune-hd-video-hands-on-chock-full-of-media-edition/

Tommy McClain

 

[AzBat]

So they seem to be underlining the HD aspect. HD Radio doesn't seem to be going anywhere. So HD video, how much is that dock and how much is HD content?

BTW, on the Zune.net site you can buy the Zune accessories @ 50% off. Right now they have the Zune A/V Pack with Zune Dock, component video cable, wireless remote & charger for $30US. Says its compatible with all Zunes, but the pics of the ZuneHD Dock look specifically molded for that device. Plus, not sure if the connector is the same. I would hope so.

As for the content I'm sure the content will be the same as the HD content on Xbox Video Marketplace. In fact, they will rebrand the Xbox Video Marketplace as the Zune Marketplace later this year. It's been speculated that will allow you to purchase content that will be compatible on either device.

Tommy McClain

 

[Richard]

Great price.

I know the price is lower than the iTouch but I can shake the feeling the profit margins must be huge. For that price you can buy an XBOX 360 and a new game!

Btw, it has been confirmed they're going internationally though no exact mention of dates or country list.

I'm still on the fence on whether to get one, partially because my music collection alone is a little over 10gb, nevermind my videos + pics which would make even the 32gb version inadequate. If I can't have my whole media collection on the portable device and if I have to compromise and stick with a fraction, why go for a high-end PMP at all then, might as well just buy a 30 euro cheapo 4gb MP3 player.

 

[Tchock]

33 hours MP3 (wireless off), 8.5 for video.

I know it's better than the Touch, but tiny batt? =/