In interesting situation with the PS3 and HDMI1.3 regarding BR playback

[RobertR1]

It was naturally assumed by those who purchased the PS3 with the intention of a BR player that with HDMI1.3, the new audio codecs (TruHD and DTS HD MA) would either be decoded interally and passed onto the receiver as PCM or the streams themselves would be passed onto a HDMI1.3 receiver and which point the receiver would do the decoding. In the latter scenario the assumption was that it wasn't too big of a deal for an AV enthusiast if the PS3 didn't do interal decoding since it'd simply pass on the encoded stream as is and let the receiver handle it.

Now it would that is no longer the case. Here is "paidgeek" on avsforum explaining:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10457406&&#post10457406

Originally Posted by bfdtv
paidgeek,

As you probably know, Onkyo recently announced that its first HDMI 1.3 receivers with built-in DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD decoding would ship within a few weeks (May), with other models to follow in June. Some retailers (J&R) are/were taking preorders.

Can you confirm whether the current firmware on the Sony PS3 is capable of passing -- rather than decoding -- the full DTS-HD MA and TrueHD bitstreams to these receivers? Originally, the PS3 was unable to do that, but do you know whether that capability was added with one of the firmwares released in the past two months? Or do you expect that is something Sony will support soon after these new A/V receivers hit the market?

If that is something you could confirm with SCEI, members would appreciate it. They've got PS3s and are looking at these new A/V receivers with DTS-HD MA and TrueHD decoding, but they want to be sure they can actually take advantage of it. New products such as these command a premium at initial release, so if the ability to pass full DTS-HD MA and TrueHD bitstreams won't be added for a few months yet, members could wait and consider alternatives from other manufacturers later this summer.

Paidgeek's response:

Sorry for the delayed response.

The PS3 does not pass advanced codecs over HDMI except for Dolby THD after decoding to PCM. I don't know if this feature will be added in the future. I fully understand why members are concerned about this, but as far as I am concerned, decoding in the player to LPCM gives us the most flexibility while maintaining sound quality.

__________________
Sony Pictures BD Insider"



Now we find out that it's "optional" to pass on the audio streams within the HDMI1.3 spec but heaven forbid if the consumer would know about it:http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10458489&&#post10458489

 

[expletive]

Very good info Robert, thanks. You would think its 'easier' to leave the audio streams untouched and pass them natively rather than decode them first. And to your point WRT HDMI and the consumer I couldnt agree more. Just when you thought youd have HDMI 1.3 nailed, they go and put a bunch of 'options' in the fine print. So i suppose the abosolute 'must have' feature to be HDMI 1.3 is the deep color support?

Incidentally, any news on how the PS3 is handling SACD these days? I recall they were expecting to put in a pretty hefty software update that was going to provide unparalleled SACD playback quality but havent heard anything in awhile.

EDIT:Now that i re-read paidgeek's response, is he saying that only THD is converted to PCM and then passed over HDMI (with the others like DTSHD/MA completely unsupported), or is he saying that THD is the only codec passed natively and the others are converted to PCM for HDMI transmission?

 

[Arwin]

EDIT:Now that i re-read paidgeek's response, is he saying that only THD is converted to PCM and then passed over HDMI (with the others like DTSHD/MA completely unsupported), or is he saying that THD is the only codec passed natively and the others are converted to PCM for HDMI transmission?

If I can still read, then I think it is the latter.

 

[expletive]

I thought so too but I followed the provided link and it would seem that it is the former, with no DTS-HD MA support at this time. Granted its 4am here and i'm just waiting for the tylenol to kick in so i can get some sleep.

 

[one]

DTS-HD Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD are both lossless right? I have no idea why owners of those new receivers want decoding outside of PS3, especially when the HDMI 1.3 bandwidth is available.

 

[sir doris]

The fact is that there are NO Blu-ray players capable of decoding DTS-HD Master Audio yet, the Panasonic was rumored to be able to do it with the lastest firmware but it turns out it can only do DTS-HD. Also as many of the blu-ray titles include LPCM you have to ask why is there even a need for Master Audio or Dolby True HD, and indeed HDMI 1.3?

 

[Diamond.G]

DTS-HD Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD are both lossless right? I have no idea why owners of those new receivers want decoding outside of PS3, especially when the HDMI 1.3 bandwidth is available.

I think it is because they are used to the old way of sending info. DD/DTS currently is just sent to the AVR to do the decoding. The only thing I am curious about is if you send the DTHD/DTSMA signal to the AVR directly, how does the sound effects from menu transitions and button presses get mixed in?

 

[Rockster]

I think it is because they are used to the old way of sending info. DD/DTS currently is just sent to the AVR to do the decoding. The only thing I am curious about is if you send the DTHD/DTSMA signal to the AVR directly, how does the sound effects from menu transitions and button presses get mixed in?

It doesn't. That's the point.

 

[Diamond.G]

It doesn't. That's the point.

WTF is the point then . Yeah the sliding noise and the menu selection noise can be annoying it is cool nonetheless (sp?). Do any BR movies have that feature or is that an HD-DVD thing only?

Also can the PS3 decode the stream add the sound effect in and re-encode the stream and send it on it's merry way (all in realtime of course)?

 

[Carl B]

I don't know why Paidgeek gets asked so many PS3-related questions; fact is he doesn't know too much about the system. I feel bad for him - people think that because he works for "Sony," for some reason he has a direct line to the gaming division in Japan.

Anyway on the topic, it's not surprising. But at the same time I think DTS MA will be absent from the system's ability to 'touch' nearly indefinitely at this point. But... whatever, so long as the discs come in another lossless standard (and I've got Kingdom of Heaven, so I'm already at least partially effected). I'm much more concerned with PS3 being able to be firmwared up to full BD-J support when that comes into effect. I suspect it will, but you never know until it happens.

 

[RobertR1]

DTS-HD Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD are both lossless right? I have no idea why owners of those new receivers want decoding outside of PS3, especially when the HDMI 1.3 bandwidth is available.

One reason being that the PS3 is not doing internal decoding on DTS HD MA. Instead it'll take dumb it down to DD or DTS and output as such. So if it simply passed it onto a HDMI1.3, then the receiver would handle it for you.

 

[RobertR1]

EDIT:Now that i re-read paidgeek's response, is he saying that only THD is converted to PCM and then passed over HDMI (with the others like DTSHD/MA completely unsupported), or is he saying that THD is the only codec passed natively and the others are converted to PCM for HDMI transmission?

Internal decoding:
TruHD = CAN be decoded internally and passed onto the receiver as PCM
DTS HD MA = CANNOT be decoded internally

Passing on the stream to the receiver for decoding:
TruHD = no
DTS HD MA = no

 

[RobertR1]

Anyway on the topic, it's not surprising.

So Carl, you knew all along that detail of the HDMI1.3 spec? So when one person after another assumed that one of the main benefits of HDMI1.3 is the mandatory passing of the audio streams to the receiver for decoding, why werent' they being corrected? It is VERY suprising and that's the point.

I'm hoping enough people on AVS bitch so that Sony add DTS HD MA decoding internally if the PS3 can't pass on the steams. Either option would be fine with me but atleast give me an option!


And after this, with Sony not making any comments on the PS3 being a BD-J spec 1.1 and BD-Live compatiable device doesn't make me feeling very comfortable.

 

[Mmmkay]

Erm, didn't we already know this a long time ago?
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=34612

The difference being that my assumption in the old thread was wrong as it transpires THD and DTS-MA are both optional for HDMI 1.3. Either way, the report indicated that neither have bitstream options and only THD can be decoded by the PS3.

 

[Carl B]

So Carl, you knew all along that detail of the HDMI1.3 spec? So when one person after another assumed that one of the main benefits of HDMI1.3 is the mandatory passing of the audio streams to the receiver for decoding, why werent' they being corrected?

Well, I haven't seen posts to that effect, so I don't know what to say to that; there seems more confusion over the PS3 than any other single item of technology at AVS, and I make a point of avoiding all PS3-related threads to save myself the anger. But I of course knew that DTS MA wasn't being passed along, yes.

I just don't understand how there can be so much confusion over an item that a ton of people actually own. Are you telling me that before PaidGeek's answer, the general populace over there was ignorant of the fact that no one was passing TrueHD through for external decoding? I mean, doesn't that sound ridiculous?

EDIT: To be fair, the person asking the question was indeed aware, he was simply asking if a newer firmware update would resolve it. I still wonder though where lines like this come from: I do understand SCEI probably has other priorities right now, but I hope in your discussions, you will make them aware of our desire for DTS-HD MA decoding, be it in the PS3 internally, or through a separate AVR with bitstream output. You can be sure that PaidGeek does not have a line of communication to SCEI's software crew; the decisions they make, they make at their own initiative. SCEI doesn't answer to the CE division, let alone the movie division. There may be channel's to petition them over, but PaidGeek is not a viable ambassador to SCEI IMO, even though he makes the effort.

 

[RobertR1]

Well, I haven't seen posts to that effect, so I don't know what to say to that; there seems more confusion over the PS3 than any other single item of technology at AVS, and I make a point of avoiding all PS3-related threads to save myself the anger. But I of course knew that DTS MA wasn't being passed along, yes.

Read the big thread on PS3 owners getting excited about the Onkyo 1.3 receivers out now/soon. TruHD isn't being passed along either. TruHD is beign internally decoded and then passed onto any receiver as PCM (which is fine by me and DTS HD MA should follow the same path). Are you confusing internal decoding with passing on the encoded stream to the receiver?

I just don't understand how there can be so much confusion over an item that a ton of people actually own. Are you telling me that before PaidGeek's answer, the general populace over there was ignorant of the fact that no one was passing TrueHD through for external decoding? I mean, doesn't that sound ridiculous?

You're not really getting it. No one could test it because no HDMI1.3+ receivers, only which can decode either audio stream existed. So when the Onkyo's were announced people got excited and this was the their reason to hold off on getting a new receiver. That way they could decode from HDMI1.3 players to the HDMI1.3 receivers even if the player won't do internal decoding. Now we find out there's no obligation for a CE to produce a 1.3 player and have it push the encoded audio stream to the receiver.

EDIT: To be fair, the person asking the question was indeed aware, he was simply asking if a newer firmware update would resolve it. I still wonder though where lines like this come from: I do understand SCEI probably has other priorities right now, but I hope in your discussions, you will make them aware of our desire for DTS-HD MA decoding, be it in the PS3 internally, or through a separate AVR with bitstream output. You can be sure that PaidGeek does not have a line of communication to SCEI's software crew; the decisions they make, they make at their own initiative. SCEI doesn't answer to the CE division, let alone the movie division. There may be channel's to petition them over, but PaidGeek is not a viable ambassador to SCEI IMO, even though he makes the effort.

The orginial poster had to do a lot of investigation to find out this is the case. He ofcourse didn't want to come out and make a thread knowing he'd get flamed like no tomorrow. So instead, after his findings, he asked paidgeek to verify, to which he did.

Paidgeek is as viable for PS3 info as Amir is to the Xbox. If you feel he doesn't get the right info, feel free to correct him in the insiders thread. I'm not buying that.

 

[Carl B]

The orginial poster had to do a lot of investigation to find out this is the case. He ofcourse didn't want to come out and make a thread knowing he'd get flamed like no tomorrow. So instead, after his findings, he asked paidgeek to verify, to which he did.

Paidgeek is as viable for PS3 info as Amir is to the Xbox. If you feel he doesn't get the right info, feel free to correct him in the insiders thread. I'm not buying that.

Paidgeek is *much* less viable a source for PS3 information than Amir is for XBox; I've corrected and expanded on his posts numerous times in the Insiders thread, but DrDon and I don't get along, and my posts in the Insiders thread have been summarily deleted. Hell even Amir knows I'm closer to PS3 info than PaidGeek is; I just don't bother anymore. And this isn't because I'm like all sorts of PS3-insider or anything, because I'm not making any such claim. That's just how far removed from SCE PaidGeek is though, that even the simplest questions on the console require him to send a query up some nebulous chain of command. Look at his responses to PS3-related questions vs other BD-related matters, and witness the day/night difference in his confidence levels when providing answers. Not to mention, he's been wrong before when it comes to PS3. Even Penton, his erstwhile boss, is relatively clueless when it comes to the PS3 - these guys just don't (ever) speak to the SCE executive staff over in Tokyo, y'know? They don't know what the hell is going on, they're in Hollywood world. Amir can probably shout down the hall to the XBox execs (figuratively), and in his role played a direct hand in the implementation of the 360-geared solutions.

Here is a thread started in the Blu-ray section and to which I have replied on the matter - feel free to give your input there:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=843041

You seem much more zealous in defending his position against my 'claims' than even bfdtv does.

HDMI 1.3 and it's introduction in receivers has nothing to do with anything; this "drawback" of the PS3 has been known for months. Hell w/Mmmkay's linked thread, we see it known before the console even launched. (RSX nonsense aside)

 

[-tkf-]

And what are the chances of these thing being supported in future Firmwares?

Passing the bitstreams should be a no brainer and the chances should be very high.

Decoding the DTS stream should be viable as well but no so high on the list.

 

[ninzel]

My first question would be who is paidgeek and what are his credentials?

 

[RobertR1]

Ah just when you think you actually learned something, you dig in a bit deeper and find more fun:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9592919&&#post9592919

Comparing the post above with other data gathered, the poster is right on the money.