id Software's next game... info?

[Reverend]

Has John or any id staff ever revealed any technical bits about their next game? Obviously, it should feature MegaTexture but I can't find anything anywhere about any other technical details. John, of course, has said the XB360 is his current primary development platform (and therefore, logically, target in terms of best-graphics) but other than what we already know about XB360 and MegaTexture, has John hinted at anything else that can/could be as revolutionary as MegaTexture or his Reverse for id's next game?

Also, there is the PS3.

Given that we can probably expect quite remarkably detailed environments/surfaces (via MT), characters (D3 already looks quite good; if you'll forgive his choice for lower-then-expected polys due to stencil problems), SM3(+) effects and maybe some cool physics effects, what are the things we can expect John to focus more of his resources on in the graphics aspects? Yes, he's probably trying to come up with something that speeds up certain graphics parameters; the question is what are our guesses at what those parameters are.

Thanks. No, this is not a trick question and yes, these kinda stuff are what I avoid trying to get out of him, however best I try in my "stealth/sneaky" mode. If you guys can give me some ideas, I may enter that mode and approach him carefully if all those miles between him and me don't prevent me getting him slightly drunk. Again, thanks.

Gabrobot? Mordenkainen?

 

[nintenho]

They're developing Wolfenstien themselves, right?

 

[Kombatant]

I would expect him to focus more on lighting, something like "HDR Done Right(tm)" to be honest, since he has already shown an interest in lighting in general in D3. Btw, Rev, how can you be sure he's not reading this very thread? Unless he doesn't ever visit forums, of course.

 

[dizietsma]

Just to immediately repeat Kombatants point on lighting I would like to see this as well. From Far Cry to 3dmark 06 the HDR lighting has already come a long way but I still think that is an area which still has a lot more potential.

I'd like to know if JC's next engine would still keep the same looks as the Doom3 one, ie a colourful "plastic" look as some people have described it, as opposed to the rather washed out and bare but grittily realistic HL2 type visuals. Does the look just come down to a "style" an engine deleoper has and can flip between any style, or is that more difficult because you are basing your new work on old ?

 

[nintenho]

Just to immediately repeat Kombatants point on lighting I would like to see this as well. From Far Cry to 3dmark 06 the HDR lighting has already come a long way but I still think that is an area which still has a lot more potential.

I'd like to know if JC's next engine would still keep the same looks as the Doom3 one, ie a colourful "plastic" look as some people have described it, as opposed to the rather washed out and bare but grittily realistic HL2 type visuals. Does the look just come down to a "style" an engine deleoper has and can flip between any style, or is that more difficult because you are basing your new work on old ?

First of them all, the plastic look in games is because of bad modeling. You have to consider that not that many programmers have too much experience with normal mapping.

Second, what Carmack was interested in when making the Doom 3 engine was a game that would render EVERYTHING to a very high detail level. HDR is purely artistic and how good it looks depends on how many subtleties the lighting guys (don't know if they fall under programmer or modeler) put into the HDR. I'm guessing the next engine will be like Doom 3 only the focus will probably be on detail in things we don't see much of with today's engines....

Hopefully, Carmack will learn from what Epic did with the Unreal Engine 3.0 and make very good tools for the engine so that they can sell it.

 

[Zeross]

You can find some hints in his Quakecon 2004 keynote, I'm sure everything he talked about won't make its way in his final engine but at least it gives us some clues.

So what we can expect :
-Better looking skins and materials in general (multiple levels of specularity, sub surface scattering, partial translucency, Per-pixel reflection vector calculations for specular instead of an interpolated half-angle, Light and view vectors normalized with math instead of normalization cube maps, renormalization of
of the normal maps before it does all the lighting calculations)
-Shadow maps will probably be used instead of shadow volumes
-Order independent translucency
-Some kind of faked displacement mapping ? (he doesn't seem to be impressed with parallax mapping)

And obviously that improved MegaTexture technology

 

[nintenho]

You can find some hints in his Quakecon 2004 keynote, I'm sure everything he talked about won't make its way in his final engine but at least it gives us some clues.

So what we can expect :
-Better looking skins and materials in general (multiple levels of specularity, sub surface scattering, partial translucency, Per-pixel reflection vector calculations for specular instead of an interpolated half-angle, Light and view vectors normalized with math instead of normalization cube maps, renormalization of
of the normal maps before it does all the lighting calculations)
-Shadow maps will probably be used instead of shadow volumes
-Order independent translucency
-Some kind of faked displacement mapping ? (he doesn't seem to be impressed with parallax mapping)
And obviously that improved MegaTexture technology

About the faked displacement mapping, isnt' that extremely bad for a 3d engine? Did he describe how the displacement mapping would work.

 

[Rodéric]

First of them all, the plastic look in games is because of bad modeling.

It's because of bad lighting, specular being too present makes it look plastic.
It's usualy solved using a gloss map.

You have to consider that not that many programmers have too much experience with normal mapping.

Programmers are very used to Normals, whatever the "level of detail" (vertex vs normal map), they are used since like forever to compute lighting, although first generation titles used light maps because it looked too bad given the geometry processing capabilities of the computers at the time.
(Vertex lighting is in OpenGL specs since several years, long before consumer 3D accelerators came to life.)

Second, what Carmack was interested in when making the Doom 3 engine was a game that would render EVERYTHING to a very high detail level.

Not really it was all about everything being lite the same way, lighting being fully dynamic...
(As opposed with previous games using static lightmaps for level geometry and vertex lighting (?) for models.)

HDR is purely artistic and how good it looks depends on how many subtleties the lighting guys (don't know if they fall under programmer or modeler) put into the HDR.

Not nearly, HDR is used to simulate a real life effect, move in a bright sunny afternoon from outdoor to a building, you'll be in the dark for some time before getting used to the new lighting level and seeing well again...
(same goes moving from within the building to outside, except this time around everything's bright, obviously)


As for ID Software next game, if it's really different (I think I read that somewhere) it might well be a 3rd person game...
That could really be something.

 

[nintenho]

It's because of bad lighting, specular being too present makes it look plastic.
It's usualy solved using a gloss map.


Programmers are very used to Normals, whatever the "level of detail" (vertex vs normal map), they are used since like forever to compute lighting, although first generation titles used light maps because it looked too bad given the geometry processing capabilities of the computers at the time.
(Vertex lighting is in OpenGL specs since several years, long before consumer 3D accelerators came to life.)


Not really it was all about everything being lite the same way, lighting being fully dynamic...
(As opposed with previous games using static lightmaps for level geometry and vertex lighting (?) for models.)


Not nearly, HDR is used to simulate a real life effect, move in a bright sunny afternoon from outdoor to a building, you'll be in the dark for some time before getting used to the new lighting level and seeing well again...
(same goes moving from within the building to outside, except this time around everything's bright, obviously)


As for ID Software next game, if it's really different (I think I read that somewhere) it might well be a 3rd person game...
That could really be something.

For the first correction, that's what I meant. For the second, I meant modelors and not programmers. For the fourth, what I'm saying is that Carmack himself woudn't be too interested in advancing the techniques used in various games to make their HDR look good, at least as far as I know....

 

[AlNom]

As for ID Software next game, if it's really different (I think I read that somewhere) it might well be a 3rd person game...
That could really be something.

Hollenshead seems to keep dropping hints that it's a first person game.

 

[John Reynolds]

Hollenshead seems to keep dropping hints that it's a first person game.

If true, yet again id Software flexes their creative talents.

 

[digitalwanderer]

Rev, why not just ask him straight-up about it? In my experience people appreciate honesty in these types of things more than fishing, and I very much doubt JC will be "fooled" by a sneaky approach...he seems to be a pretty bright fellow.

 

[Moloch]

Rev, why not just ask him straight-up about it? In my experience people appreciate honesty in these types of things more than fishing, and I very much doubt JC will be "fooled" by a sneaky approach...he seems to be a pretty bright fellow.

It would appear my posts have been deleted for suggesting so.. be carefull

 

[_xxx_]

If true, yet again id Software flexes their creative talents.

You deserved some serious whipping for this, y'know!

C'mon, these guys gave us (the old) Doom, Quake and Wolfenstein. Even if they never did anything else, that's enough for the hall of fame in gamers' heaven IMO.

 

[John Reynolds]

You deserved some serious whipping for this, y'know!

C'mon, these guys gave us (the old) Doom, Quake and Wolfenstein. Even if they never did anything else, that's enough for the hall of fame in gamers' heaven IMO.

No, these guys didn't give us Doom and Quake. Other guys did.

 

[dizietsma]

It would appear my posts have been deleted for suggesting so.. be carefull

I would suggest your posts were deleted for distracting from the point in hand so upsetting the flow of the thread.The thread reads a lot better now they have been deleted, do you not agree ?

 

[Moloch]

I would suggest your posts were deleted for distracting from the point in hand so upsetting the flow of the thread.The thread reads a lot better now they have been deleted, do you not agree ?

You expect me to agree that I was wrong?
pfft

 

[Sxotty]

No, these guys didn't give us Doom and Quake. Other guys did.

Carmack did not work there then? Funny I was under the impression the he did.

 

[karlotta]

i think his post is about the real guys who dont work for ID now. The crew for the early games. The best left or where kicked out. And no JC cant make a good game, he can code for a good game, it takes the other guys to make the good game. Hence lack of any real creative stuff in D3.

 

[Richard]

It's funny some people say id showed great creative muscle when they did wolf3d/doom/quake, when if anything, those three games are the most alike of all id did and the ones that required less creative ingenuity.

And Kevin Cloud is still there and so is Tim Willits (worked on Quake). Tom Hall and John Romero are the ones JR is probably thinking about. Where are they now?

Reverend: AFAIK the only solid information about id's next game is that it will be a first person game. Engine-wise, it's also just the presence MT (full this time, not just terrain).