hypothetical question!?!#@

[pax]

Again if you fiddle with the idea of god as some kind of failed being you leave a massive hole in a theological construct. If its absolutley important to you to have someone to blame other than yourself you can do that by thiking up a devil chanarcter,.. demi god or what else but that still addresses the primal aspect as to why there is suffering anf why would god allow someone to oppress someone.

Genesis deals with that pretty well. Its allows for various levels of beings in the grand scheme of things without allowing for any blame to go up the ladder all the way to the supreme being. If any scenario allows for a fundamentally bad or evil or otherwise wrong supreme being you get that massive logic hole again that I havent in my life heard can be filled by any other idea.

 

[MfA]

It wasnt me who was removing the omni-potency/science from god. The ability to fail does not imply being bad or evil, just fallible ...

 

[pax]

Well the bad design bit seems to say so. I dont see fallibility if you create a free will being and cant foresee his decisions down the road (tho certainly the consequences of the decisions). Free will isnt bad design...

Id consider the avoidance of creating free will beings as failure tho.

The hard thing with free will is that its hard to see how future bad decisions can be avoided. Id like to think spiritual evoluiotn will see some learn by their bad decisions while others perish. But to not be 100% secure in the company of others even I choose to make only good decisions after this life is disconcerting. It almost demands that some mechanism exists to make us forget the existance of others no matter how long they've been with us if they need to be annihilated at some point (a bit sentimental of me there but the emotional damage someone could create by becoming evil again is a bit much tho maturity can always evolve further to give us the tools to deal with it if it happens again.).

I cant see how judgement day will guarantee that more tragedies wont be suffered by the same group of people over and over again. At the same time you want to accept the idea that some will always persist on the right road.

Now im getting a bit into details... I dont agree with inherent immortality btw. I think the 7th day advents have a better take on this concept.

 

[V3]

Hell and benevolence do not mix.

That's why hell is a place of seperation from God.

BTW God loves everything that are good and hates everything that are evil.

If God is not omniscient we might also be suffering because he was just such a damn poor designer (it cannot be ruled out without omniscience).

Suffering is the result of evil, either through our own intention or others. From suffering more evil intent may come, in form of vengeance, envy, etc. But not all is lost, from suffering, can come forgiveness, humility, etc. These good qualities are what God loves to see.

Also at the end of time, God will end evil, once and for all, those who are with him will not suffer any more, and those who are against him will suffer for all eternity.

 

[zidane1strife]

Well, feel free to try. You just gave me the ability to teleport myself from such situations.

heheh, well they could try as you say... but lets forget the means to apply/enact the sentence/punishment, let's center/focus on the act of condemning/sentencing.

Also at the end of time, God will end evil, once and for all, those who are with him will not suffer any more, and those who are against him will suffer for all eternity.

hmmm can you actually destroy evil? Can good exist without evil? Can a coin exist without two sides... Can positive exist without negative? Hell sounds like a place where all evil would perpetually exist... in the form of unjust eternal torment... and eventually everyone would end up there, if free will remained in heaven...

 

[MfA]

Hell and benevolence do not mix.

That's why hell is a place of seperation from God.

So is oblivion, but it lacks all the burning for eternity.

BTW God loves everything that are good and hates everything that are evil.

That is not very benevolent.

Also at the end of time, God will end evil, once and for all, those who are with him will not suffer any more, and those who are against him will suffer for all eternity.

Spitefull lil bugger.

 

[V3]

So is oblivion, but it lacks all the burning for eternity.

Well, in oblivion, salvation can still be had, but once in hell, the judgement is final.

That is not very benevolent.

What do you expect ? God is not neutral between good and evil.

 

[pax]

You seem content to fear God for all eternity there v3... And you also seem to not be bothered by the prospect of the spectacle of the eternal damnation of some souls...

I dont care to live forever with such a spectacle that would make the Circus Maximus like a day at the park in retrospect...

 

[V3]

Can good exist without evil?

Yes it can, as it was before creation and will be again at the end of time.

Hell sounds like a place where all evil would perpetually exist... in the form of unjust eternal torment...

unjust eternal torment ? You really hated the idea don't you ?

and eventually everyone would end up there, if free will remained in heaven...

After the end of time, most humans won't be in heaven. Those who are not judge to Hell, will live on Earth. Free will remained though. Even in this life free will doesn't always lead to evil. At the end of time people not judge to Hell will be satisfied by God, they wouldn't give it up for any evil intention.

 

[V3]

You seem content to fear God for all eternity there v3...

Yes, if you're against him, God is someone to be feared.

And you also seem to not be bothered by the prospect of the spectacle of the eternal damnation of some souls...

Salvation is not like winning a jackpot or anything. Salvation can be assured.

And for the record, I am bothered about the eternal damnation of souls, that's why to those who read this, please assured your salvation.

 

[pax]

Well then if you are bothered and both expect to have some people end up in hell for all eternity then how can you exist happy forever if some people are already down there suffering torment?

Doesnt that make you wanna question your understanding of the bible or judeo-xtianity or even theology in general?

 

[zidane1strife]

Yes it can, as it was before creation and will be again at the end of time.

Well, there are two semi-christian views I've heard of the world before creation... the one from genesis, God was all that existed... and the other were God was betrayed(I'm not sure whether this last one is supposed to be prior to the creation of the world.). If both events are prior, we can see that in one nothing existed besides God, and in the other both evil and good beings existed.

In any case the classical view of an eternal heaven, and an eternal hell... is not the creation of a world were evil ceases to exist, and good finally triumphs. But the isolation of both forces, a separation of a heterogeneous mixture into its two components.

Yes evil would still exist in hell, you can be certain of it, not only would it exist in the form of unjust torment, but, as long as freedom of thought existed, on the form of ever growing hatred amongst many of those that remained there.

To say, hell must exist, is but to say evil cannot be undone, only isolated from the world, and in order for paradise to exist we must do so... but then those who'd be able to overlook the sufferings of their fellow humans and remain in supposedly eternal bliss... can only be described as being in a state of inhumanity, one that given free will and eternal time, cannot last.

Even in this life free will doesn't always lead to evil. At the end of time people not judge to Hell will be satisfied by God, they wouldn't give it up for any evil intention.

Look, given eternal time, sooner or later it's not only likely, but it is certain that they are bound to fall, unless some divine grace or the like limits them.

If you see someone suffering in this world, the humane thing to do is to help them... why would this not be so, in the next?

Well then if you are bothered and both expect to have some people end up in hell for all eternity then how can you exist happy forever if some people are already down there suffering torment?

Indeed. I mean it's contradictory, the fact that you're happy and not worried, or even trying to aid your fellow humans... is an act of inhumanity... your only choice would seem to be... to revolt against God... and sooner or later... you'd be bound to say: "It's been enough, please let them be or at least let them rest... "

edii

 

[V3]

Well then if you are bothered and both expect to have some people end up in hell for all eternity then how can you exist happy forever if some people are already down there suffering torment?

Like I said before, When God filled the void that is in your heart, you will be happy. When that happen, even if you know that there are souls in hell, you would not be bothered anymore, because you will be in eternal bliss.

Doesnt that make you wanna question your understanding of the bible or judeo-xtianity or even theology in general?

You have to remember all happiness comes from God. God is the central of that theology, not human.

 

[V3]

Well, there are two semi-christian views... (snip)

There is no world or anything else before creation. Only God. Then God created all the angels, these are pure spirits. Even at this stage God was already betrayed by some of these spirits. And they are already condemn to Hell.

And as witnessed by these spirits God created the material world and everything in it. Again God was betrayed from ealry on.

In any case the classical view of an eternal heaven, (snip)

There won't be growing hatred, that won't be possible, evil won't be possible with the punishment that is given to them.

I already told you God will end evil once and for all. Is not isolation of good and evil, but the end of evil.

Unjust torment ? You may not undestand it now, but at the end of time God will show everyone what Justice is.

can only be described as being in a state of inhumanity, one that given free will and eternal time, cannot last.

God is not human.

If you see someone suffering in this world, the humane thing to do is to help them... why would this not be so, in the next?

Because those who are condemn to Hell, failed to help people that are suffering in this world and they don't repent. Furthermore they rejected God.

Put it simply, once you're in hell, its beyond help. That's why we should help everyone avoid it while we can.

or even trying to aid your fellow humans... is an act of inhumanity... your only choice would seem to be... to revolt against God... and sooner or later... you'd be bound to say: "It's been enough, please let them be or at least let them rest... "

God through his omniscient, knows that those who are in Hell will never repent. And when you're with God, you will also know that they will never repent for eternity. The spirits who betrayed God in the beginning for example weren't given a chance to repent, because God knows they will never repent. Some human on the other hand will repent.

 

[MfA]

How can you talk about betrayal when you create something with foreknowledge that they will betray you? That is like throwing something heavy above your head and acting surprised when it hits you in the head ... what is he, an idiot?

(BTW I realise how plebeian it is to throw the common sense arguement against omniscience.)

 

[Gubbi]

what is he, an idiot?

Yes, but an omnipotent one, so don't mess with him.

Cheers
Gubbi

 

[Sxotty]

I think this is a funny thread but hell could exist and here is how. Lets say after you die you go and meet God, he offers you a place in his kingdom and you give him the finger, there you go to hell. Why because you choose not to be with him. So perhaps not many people will do this, but some might and this is basically the premise of satan came to be. So the moral of the story is if you meet God try to be polite .

 

[zidane1strife]

Unjust torment ? You may not undestand it now, but at the end of time God will show everyone what Justice is.

Isn't this world a temporary one, have you not said the souls can exist outside of it, is punishment then... not unlike real world punishment for misbehavior in an mmorpg?

Put it simply, once you're in hell, its beyond help. That's why we should help everyone avoid it while we can.

Suppose there was layer above the one you describe as the next, that is, God would be above the being which you mistook for him, would he not condemn you then for abandoning your brothers in that existance, according to your theory?

Heck, even in this world, say you think you're dead, but in reality you've been taken to a vr sim. of heaven for the remainder of your life, and are allowed to revolt and help those who're in the same sim, but in hell, and you refuse to... would you then according to the theory of hell not go to it, once you really died?

Now there is no way for you to know the aspect of heaven, thus you could fall for a really convincing facade representing it.

Because those who are condemn to Hell, failed to help people that are suffering in this world and they don't repent.

If you believe in hell, and not worrying about your brothers in the next life, only a false heaven on earth, that is to make you believe you've gone to heaven, is necessary for this to occur-be condemned-. For you would abandon your brothers, and worship someone else.

ed

 

[V3]

Isn't this world a temporary one, have you not said the souls can exist outside of it, is punishment then... not unlike real world punishment for misbehavior in an mmorpg?

This world is temporary, in the sense it will be made new again, so the material world will exist for eternity too.

Now there is no way for you to know the aspect of heaven, thus you could fall for a really convincing facade representing it.

No, not really, until your void is fill with God, you will always want more.

If you believe in hell, and not worrying about your brothers in the next life, only a false heaven on earth, that is to make you believe you've gone to heaven, is necessary for this to occur-be condemned-. For you would abandon your brothers, and worship someone else.

Well, lets start from the beginning, humans are created to be in heaven. If they go to hell, that means they abandon heaven for hell, and they abandon people in heaven to be in hell and abandon God to be in hell. So really, its the people in hell that abandon people in heaven.

 

[MfA]

If God created each and every man who would abondon him in the knowledge they would then who is abondoning who exactly?