Sure, once people stop talking about things they don't have a clue about. Why are you so scared by the fact that people can live quite happily on a vegetarian diet? Why the need to try and "prove" it's difficult when you have zero experience of the reality? The simple fact is a vegetarian diet is less risky than a diet that contains a lot of red meat and every medical study ever made backs this fact up. It's also more ethical, better for the environment and doesn't make you into a hypocrite (since most meat-eaters wouldn't dream of eating their pets and yet see no inconsistency in this strange viewpoint). Is that what you really don't like, ummm?Joe DeFuria said:
Hows the US "healthy" food going?
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Joe DeFuria
Legend
Diplo said:
Um, where did say or imply any such thing...that people can't be happy on a vegetarian diet?
All I said / implied is that it takes a more conscious effort to be a strict vegetarian and be healthy than it would if you had a diet that was balanced and included meat.
You just can't say "No more meat for me", and figure that's "healthier" than eating a diet that includes meat.
Why is this so hard to understand?
Why the need to argue against something I've not said or implied?
1) Define "a lot of" read meat.
2) Who said anything about "red meat" specifically anyway?
Uh, OK. Now you're drawing some completely arbitrary "ethical" line between "non human animals" and "non animals."? For what reason...who knows. Ethics and the evironment have nothing to do with this discussion anyway.
No, what I really don't like is hyper defensive forum posters who fling argue against something that was never said by me in the first place.
I have nothing against vegetarians...for whatever reason they may be vegetarian. I don't think they're dumb or look at them like they have two heads.
I DO think that anyone who decides to be a "vegetarian" without carefully and proactively managing his diet because either
1) he or she just believes "meat isn't good for you",
2) he or she has "ethical" problems with meat
Is just being ignorant.
Joe DeFuria said:
I don't think it's ignorant to want to not contribute to the death of an animal. I don't think planning your diet has anything to do with a moral choice. You can't call someone's ethics "ignorant".
Particularly the condescending way you put quotes around the term "ethical".
I'm not that much of a meat eater myself, but wouldn't want to live completely without it (especially in BBQ season 
). My girlfriend also eats very little meat, but gets this craving every few weeks, where I usually end up having to cook her something with meat. I guess its like Squeak said, we feel a natural compulsion to eat what we need. I know several people who are quite happy and healthy as vegetarians, although one only recently started eating meat again...
Anyway, as much as I enjoy the vegetarian discussion, I wanted to get back on the original topic. Personally, my impression from my last trip to the US (4 weeks last september) is, that its definitely a bit "harder" to live healthy in the US, than for example here in Germany. Portion size might play a role, but IMO that's not the main point.
One of the things I noticed is the whole restaurant culture (or lack thereof) outside major cities. Fast food (I guess its universally agreed upon that burgers and fries are not healthy if eaten regularly) is by far the most widely available and affordable food. You can feed an entire family for the same money you'd pay in a restaurant for one person and you can get it anywhere, anytime.
In most small towns we've pased through, we'd usually find about 2-3 times as many fast food places as other restaurants. To add insult to injury, those other restaurants often close early and their menu is usually not much different from a fast food place either. The only regularly encountered alternative was the pizza places, yet pizza is hardly much better than burgers, especially considering the average size of an american pizza. The larger towns start having some ethnical restaurants, take-aways and stuff, but compared to Wendy's, McD, BK and Taco Bell they are truly rare from my experience. If you want to eat somewhat healthy, you have to rely on home cooking, which pretty much sucks for tourists.
The major cities paint a different picture though. While fast food is still dominant, there are many great restaurants and cafés. Prices tend to make this more of a upper-class thing, but its high quality stuff!
In contrast "normal" restaurants, including foreign cuisine, are far more widely spread and affordable in Germany than in the US, even in remote areas (although remote in Germany is something quite different, meaning more like 25km to the next bigger town instead of 200km as in the US). Fast food is increasingly popular, but still restricted to cities and high traffic/tourist regions. It's also cheaper than eating in a restaurant here, but not as much as in the US.
You could also look at the supermarkets. I love browsing through supermarkets in foreign countries. IMO it gives you a good feel for what the people consume in their private lives, its more authentic than just going by what you see on the streets and read in a guide. American supermarkets are cool! I really like them. But I was surprised that groceries, vegetables and fruit in particular but also stuff like cheese and other milk products, are usually quite expensive. I didn't pay attention to meat prices but in general it seems like, again, fast food is a hell of a lot cheaper for people (than cooking their own meals). Clothing and electronic goods are cheaper though, which is kinda cool. 8)
Another thing, which isn't limited to the US, is this frickin' white bread. What's up with that? While its possible to get some decent bread in bakeries and good supermarkets, its nowhere near the same level of variety as here in Germany. To be honest, that can be said about most countries, even France and Italy, which both have great breads but don't come close to the variety offered here. Bread can be something so great, its sad that 98% of the US populace is missing out on how great one of the most basic and important provisions can be.
And what's the deal with sodas? This hyper-sweet stuff is neither healthy, nor does it taste good ... why is it the only thing you can get to drink everywhere (besides water, which sometimes unfortunatelly tastes like weaponized chloride)?
Its really the same as with the vegetarian discussion I guess. It takes a more conscious effort to live and eat healthy in the US, than it would in other countries. Its certainly possible and if you know what you do, you can probably eat just as, if not more healthy than elsewhere. Mainstream food culture tends to put "fast and cheap" before "tasty and good" though.
All highly subjective of course...
). My girlfriend also eats very little meat, but gets this craving every few weeks, where I usually end up having to cook her something with meat. I guess its like Squeak said, we feel a natural compulsion to eat what we need. I know several people who are quite happy and healthy as vegetarians, although one only recently started eating meat again...Anyway, as much as I enjoy the vegetarian discussion, I wanted to get back on the original topic. Personally, my impression from my last trip to the US (4 weeks last september) is, that its definitely a bit "harder" to live healthy in the US, than for example here in Germany. Portion size might play a role, but IMO that's not the main point.
One of the things I noticed is the whole restaurant culture (or lack thereof) outside major cities. Fast food (I guess its universally agreed upon that burgers and fries are not healthy if eaten regularly) is by far the most widely available and affordable food. You can feed an entire family for the same money you'd pay in a restaurant for one person and you can get it anywhere, anytime.
In most small towns we've pased through, we'd usually find about 2-3 times as many fast food places as other restaurants. To add insult to injury, those other restaurants often close early and their menu is usually not much different from a fast food place either. The only regularly encountered alternative was the pizza places, yet pizza is hardly much better than burgers, especially considering the average size of an american pizza. The larger towns start having some ethnical restaurants, take-aways and stuff, but compared to Wendy's, McD, BK and Taco Bell they are truly rare from my experience. If you want to eat somewhat healthy, you have to rely on home cooking, which pretty much sucks for tourists.
The major cities paint a different picture though. While fast food is still dominant, there are many great restaurants and cafés. Prices tend to make this more of a upper-class thing, but its high quality stuff!
In contrast "normal" restaurants, including foreign cuisine, are far more widely spread and affordable in Germany than in the US, even in remote areas (although remote in Germany is something quite different, meaning more like 25km to the next bigger town instead of 200km as in the US). Fast food is increasingly popular, but still restricted to cities and high traffic/tourist regions. It's also cheaper than eating in a restaurant here, but not as much as in the US.
You could also look at the supermarkets. I love browsing through supermarkets in foreign countries. IMO it gives you a good feel for what the people consume in their private lives, its more authentic than just going by what you see on the streets and read in a guide. American supermarkets are cool! I really like them. But I was surprised that groceries, vegetables and fruit in particular but also stuff like cheese and other milk products, are usually quite expensive. I didn't pay attention to meat prices but in general it seems like, again, fast food is a hell of a lot cheaper for people (than cooking their own meals). Clothing and electronic goods are cheaper though, which is kinda cool. 8)
Another thing, which isn't limited to the US, is this frickin' white bread. What's up with that? While its possible to get some decent bread in bakeries and good supermarkets, its nowhere near the same level of variety as here in Germany. To be honest, that can be said about most countries, even France and Italy, which both have great breads but don't come close to the variety offered here. Bread can be something so great, its sad that 98% of the US populace is missing out on how great one of the most basic and important provisions can be.
And what's the deal with sodas? This hyper-sweet stuff is neither healthy, nor does it taste good ... why is it the only thing you can get to drink everywhere (besides water, which sometimes unfortunatelly tastes like weaponized chloride)?
Its really the same as with the vegetarian discussion I guess. It takes a more conscious effort to live and eat healthy in the US, than it would in other countries. Its certainly possible and if you know what you do, you can probably eat just as, if not more healthy than elsewhere. Mainstream food culture tends to put "fast and cheap" before "tasty and good" though.
All highly subjective of course...
Joe DeFuria
Legend
PARANOiA said:
Sigh...Don't misunderstand me. What's wrong with peoeple in this thread?
I said It doesn't matter to me if it's a so-called "ethical" decision on one's part. That's fine with me. I'm NOT saying that choosing to be a vegetarian "based on some ethics decision" is ignorant.
I put quotes around "ethical", because that is entirely subjective. I can respect one's opinion that "contributing to the death of an animal" (or death in a certain way, etc) is unethical. Even if I disagree with it.
AGAIN, I'm saying that choosing to be vegetarian for whatever reason, brings certain risks to the table when it comes to nutrition. You can't just say "I'm not going to eat an more meat" (for preceived health reasons, or "ethical" reasons, whatever), and then go on a long-term or permanent diet that lacks mea and Does not involve attention to planning and eating the right combinations of foods (and perhaps supplementation) to ensure good nutrition.
It is ignorant to think you can "just stop eating meat" and remain healthy. It CAN be done, but it involved more than just "stopping meat eating."
