Hows the US "healthy" food going?

[Diplo]

the point is, if you are a vegetarian, you must do some carful planning and eat the right combinations of foods in order to get all the essential amino acids.

The same holds true for any balanced diet regardless of whether you eat meat or not. Do you think just eating meat would give you all the correct nutrients? Following any healthy diet involves eating the right combinations of food.

The idea that you can't have a healthy vegetarian diet without supplements is simply wrong. The fact is that vegetarians statistically have longer life expectancies and less health problems than people who eat meat. Hell, probably the rural poor in China who live on a bowl of rice a day are probably healthier than most junk-food gorging Westerners.

 

[epicstruggle]

<-- Life long vegetarian, from a life long vegetarian family, whose ancestors were vegetarians for more than 1000 years.

 

[Squeak]

Meat is very important. You get lots of proteins you can never get through vegetable food.
In fact, being a vegetarian is not at all healthy. Many vegs. need to take pills to get their needed amount of protein.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Please don't embarass yourself further with such unfounded and inane comments.

That tone is uncalled for, and how do you know I "no idea what you are talking about"? Are you an expert?
I'm interested in this subject and have read a not insignificant amount of litterature on it. So I should think that to some degree I do know what I'm talking about.
It's generally agreed upon by most experts that humans are omnivores.

Vegetarians can eat soy products like tofu to compensate to some degree for not eating meat, but it's never going to be a real replacement for meat.

The ethic qualms about meat eating I don't get. What is so horrible about killing animals to eat them? It happens all the time in nature.
At least humans try to kill their food so it feels as little pain as possible.

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_087.html

 

[Squeak]

the point is, if you are a vegetarian, you must do some carful planning and eat the right combinations of foods in order to get all the essential amino acids.

The same holds true for any balanced diet regardless of whether you eat meat or not. Do you think just eating meat would give you all the correct nutrients? Following any healthy diet involves eating the right combinations of food.

The idea that you can't have a healthy vegetarian diet without supplements is simply wrong. The fact is that vegetarians statistically have longer life expectancies and less health problems than people who eat meat. Hell, probably the rural poor in China who live on a bowl of rice a day are probably healthier than most junk-food gorging Westerners.

The human body is to a large extent self regulating, so you feel a natural compulsion to eat what you need.
That mechanism has, in the last hundred years or so, been put out of balance by various "artifical" means of processing food, ways of preparing it and to much sugar. That's why we're getting fatter and fatter.
All of the remaining naturally living people (like isolated tripes living in the rainforests) in the world, eat meat of some kind, not because they are consciously trying to balance their food intake but because they like to eat meat.

 

[Diplo]

That tone is uncalled for

Sorry, you are right - my tone was rude. However, perhaps if you understood how much prejudice and sheer number of mistruths and lies vegetarians have to put with then you'd understand why your comments angered me.

and how do you know I "no idea what you are talking about"?

By what you say.

So I should think that to some degree I do know what I'm talking about.

You may think so, but you don't.

Vegetarians can eat soy products like tofu to compensate to some degree for not eating meat, but it's never going to be a real replacement for meat.

In what way is it not? There is nothing in meat you cannot get from non-meat products. Here's a quote from Carl Lewis:

Can a world-class athlete get enough protein from a vegetarian diet to compete? I’ve found that a person does not need protein from meat to be a successful athlete. In fact, my best year of track competition was the first year I ate a vegan diet. Moreover, by continuing to eat a vegan diet, my weight is under control, I like the way I look. (I know that sounds vain, but all of us want to like the way we look.) I enjoy eating more, and I feel great.

- Very Vegetarian by Carl Lewis

The ethic qualms about meat eating I don't get. What is so horrible about killing animals to eat them? It happens all the time in nature.

Infanticide, rape and killing for pleasure also happen in nature. Does that then mean it's OK for those things to happen in human society too? I guess if I'm hungry it would OK for me to kill you and eat you? After all, that is what happens in nature? I also take it you hunt and eat your meat raw? That's the natural way, isn't it?

At least humans try to kill their food so it feels as little pain as possible.

Again, you show your ignorance. Do you think poultry cramped in battery enclosures all their life feel as little pain as possible, for example? Try reading what happens first.

 

[Tim Murray]

say what you will, though, meat is damned tasty.

 

[nelg]

Diplo,

First off if God did not want us to eat animals he would not have made them out of meat. (Unknown quote).

Seriously I think what Squeak and Joe are saying is that moderate consumption off meat is beneficial. It is not natural to have to so carefully monitor your diet to stay healthy. Ask any obstetrician, they warn vegetarian mothers to be, about proper nutrition far more than omnivorous ones due to the difficulties (relative) in maintaining proper nutrition for a developing baby. I am not saying that it is hard, just pointing out that it takes more consideration than it would otherwise.

Insofar as Carl Lewis is concerned I am quite certain his best year in track had more to do with his *cough* supplements *cough* than his diet.

 

[Diplo]

Seriously I think what Squeak and Joe are saying is that moderate consumption off meat is beneficial.

But it isn't. A balanced diet containing all the foodgroups you require is beneficial - that is all. Now you can certainly get that from a diet that includes moderate amounts of lean meat but you can also get that from non-meat diets, too. There is nothing intrinsically 'magic' about meat that you need it.

In fact recent studies show that eating red-meat is actually unhealthy for you:

A 20-year study of more than 148,000 adults aged 50 to 74 found those with the highest consumption of those meats were 50 percent more likely to develop cancer in the lower colon than those with the lowest consumption. The report appears in the Jan. 12 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association.

- http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=41398

Study after study has shown that socities that have a low consumption of red meat (eg. Asians) live longer and are healthier. For instance, the American Journal Of Clinical Nutriton conclude that:

Current data from prospective cohort studies of adults raise the possibility that a lifestyle pattern that includes a very low meat intake is associated with greater longevity. The findings from one cohort of healthy adults raises the possibility that long-term ( 2 decades) adherence to a vegetarian diet can further produce a significant 3.6-y increase in life expectancy.

It is not natural to have to so carefully monitor your diet to stay healthy.

What exactly is "natural"? You think the meat you eat is "natural"? Most of the meat you consume is from animals that are pumped so full of steroids and anti-biotics that you are digesting a coctail of chemicals. It's so processed and removed from "natural" as to be untrue. If you want "natural" try eating some raw meat and seeing who long you last before throwing up or getting worms (yes, millions of tiny parsites live in animal flesh). Did you know, for instance, that In 1992, the USDA estimated that 40 percent of all poultry is contaminated with salmonella? Or that 90% of beef cattle in the US are impregnated with growth hormones (which are banned in the EU, incidently).

You don't hear of many vegetarians suffering from e-coli, BSD, CJD, salmonella etc. The fact is that modern, intensive farming practices produce meat that is anything but healthy or natural. Go read up on it and the come back and tell me it's good for you - try entering the http://www.themeatrix.com/

 

[nelg]

In fact recent studies show that eating red-meat is actually unhealthy for you:

A 20-year study of more than 148,000 adults aged 50 to 74 found those with the highest consumption of those meats were 50 percent more likely to develop cancer in the lower colon than those with the lowest consumption. The report appears in the Jan. 12 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association.

I am sure I could find a study that shows eating large amounts of pesticide treated vegtables increases cancer. The point is, in moderation , it is healthy.

Study after study has shown that socities that have a low consumptn of red meat (eg. Asians) live longer and are healthier. For instance, the American Journal Of Clinical Nutriton conclude that:

Current data from prospective cohort studies of adults raise the possibility that a lifestyle pattern that includes a very low meat intake is associated with greater longevity. The findings from one cohort of healthy adults raises the possibility that long-term ( 2 decades) adherence to a vegetarian diet can further produce a significant 3.6-y increase in life expectancy.

The trouble with most studies is that they are much to one dimensional to tell us what we really want to know. As such they are easily co-opted to advance a position or premiss which was most likely there at the onset. For example Everyone I know who is a vegetarian also refrains from smoking and drinking. Furthermore most engage in regular exercise. Looking at the abstinence of alcohol and smoking plus the benefit of exercise any health or longevity based studies with these demographic types included would surely be skewed. That is why almost all such studies would fail to meet the criteria used in medical research. Furthermore another possible misleading part of dietary research is the inclusion of the longevity factor in determining what is healthy. It is very possible that due to the slow pace of evolutionary change that humans are in fact not meant to live to past 70 (or so). So while certain dietary habits may decrease life expectancy they may facilitate a better earlier existence. Aiding in things such a conception and such.

It is not natural to have to so carefully monitor your diet to stay healthy.

What exactly is "natural"? You think the meat you eat is "natural"? Most of the meat you consume is from animals that are pumped so full of steroids and anti-biotics that you are digesting a coctail of chemicals. It's so processed and removed from "natural" as to be untrue. If you want "natural" try eating some raw meat and seeing who long you last before throwing up or getting worms (yes, millions of tiny parsites live in animal flesh). Did you know, for instance, that In 1992, the USDA estimated that 40 percent of all poultry is contaminated with salmonella? Or that 90% of beef cattle in the US are impregnated with growth hormones (which are banned in the EU, incidently).

You don't hear of many vegetarians suffering from e-coli, BSD, CJD, salmonella etc. The fact is that modern, intensive farming practices produce meat that is anything but healthy or natural. Go read up on it and the come back and tell me it's good for you - try entering the http://www.themeatrix.com/

[/quote]

Again your are misconstruing what I said. I did not say that current factory farming methods are 'natural' only that man's evolutionary disposition is to be omnivorous.

 

[Diplo]

Again your are misconstruing what I said. I did not say that current factory farming methods are 'natural' only that man's evolutionary disposition is to be omnivorous.

So go eat some raw liver then Oh, and most primates are vegetarian.

 

[RussSchultz]

Supposedly, evolution of the brain took off after we started adding protein and fat to the diet.

 

[Sonic]

People in China who only eat a bowl of rice a day may live longer because they are consuming less food in general. I do believe zidane1strife has evidence to support this.

 

[arjan de lumens]

Nothing wrong with being a Veggie. Wouldn't fancy it myself though.

What I do find ridiculous are the fanatical veggies who keep dogs/cats and feed them on vegetarian foods even though they are obviously carnivorous animals. Just crackers. :?

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/catfood.html

While humans and dogs apparently can survive reasonably well on a vegetarian diet, cats will go blind and/or die. Just plain animal cruelty, no better than what people often seek to avoid by going veggie in the first place.

 

[PARANOiA]

I've never seen evidence that eating meat (balanced or otherwise) was healthier than eating a balanced diet not containing meat.

Feel free to show me where evidence lies, otherwise I'll assume I'm right, and there's no benefit.

 

[PARANOiA]

However, perhaps if you understood how much prejudice and sheer number of mistruths and lies vegetarians have to put with then you'd understand why your comments angered me.

That's very true.

I live in Melbourne (a very multicultural and diverse city) but I've gone out with friends for a meal, only to be confronted with a menu containing all meat (not common, but it happens). When the waitress came over and I asked if there was any vegetarian options, she couldn't understand the concept that I didn't eat meat. She literally looked at me like I was dysfunctional. She actually SAT DOWN at the table and said "I don't understand. You CHOOSE not to eat meat? You can eat it but you don't?? Why not? What do you eat?" etc etc.

Again, I'm happy for people to eat what they want, but please don't treat me like I'm not as good as you because I've made a particular choice.

 

[nelg]

Again your are misconstruing what I said. I did not say that current factory farming methods are 'natural' only that man's evolutionary disposition is to be omnivorous.

So go eat some raw liver then Oh, and most primates are vegetarian.

Are you saying that everything you eat is raw? Have you ever made tofu without heat?

 

[Crisidelm]

I don't eat meat (because I just don't like it, although I couldn't even eat it nowadays anyhow) but I do like fish.

 

[Thowllly]

Supposedly, evolution of the brain took off after we started adding protein and fat to the diet.

<-- Life long vegetarian, from a life long vegetarian family, whose ancestors were vegetarians for more than 1000 years.

whoa, suddenly it all makes sense...




sorry epic, I couldn't resist... ; )

 

[Joe DeFuria]

The same holds true for any balanced diet regardless of whether you eat meat or not. Do you think just eating meat would give you all the correct nutrients?

Did I say "just" eating mean would give me all the correct nutrients?

I said balance is important.

I said eating NO meat means that you must be very careful and monitor exactly what (and when) you eat to make sure you get a healthy mix of amino acids.

If you eat with some meat in your diet (along with some fruits / veggies) you are far, far less likely to be significantly deficient.

The idea that you can't have a healthy vegetarian diet without supplements is simply wrong.

And I did not say you needed supplements. Please read again what I said.

You just need to re-the-hell-lax about anyone who dares suggest that "non managed" vegetarian diets pose a risk.

 

[epicstruggle]

Supposedly, evolution of the brain took off after we started adding protein and fat to the diet.

<-- Life long vegetarian, from a life long vegetarian family, whose ancestors were vegetarians for more than 1000 years.

whoa, suddenly it all makes sense...




sorry epic, I couldn't resist... ; )

lol, it might explain alot.