Holographic Disc to Store One Terabyte of Data

[Ty]

That's kinda irrelevant though because HD DVD already has near identical *performance* ie no visual differnce. The BR advantage is *slightly* more capacity at the expense of higher cost.

The two formats have near identical performance for the time being. Yet if BR can scale up to 8 layers then HD-DVD will truly be left behind as even their roadmap does not lend itself to that many layers.

Now it can argued that that much space is irrelevant to the average consumer wrt watching movies.

HD DVD and BR are different because they have to wait for blue lasers to become cheap and also wait for studio support. HVD doesn't need to wait for either of those to be sold as PC drives that act like MO drives.

Yes, adoption in the PC space is probably far easier than the home electronics side of things. That said, I still don't see any proof that sales in the Pc sector drove adoption in the home electronics side.

Yeah and that future is only 1 or 2 years away.

Maybe in the PC sector but surely not the home electronics side.

Are the studios behind HD-DVD exclusive? Or have they simply not mentioned BR support yet?

Don't know and don't care. Unless dual format players are released consumers will need to buy two players.

Well if studios on either side aren't exclusive, then perhaps consumers won't need to buy two different players.

Lots of momentum but still not a unified format which will cause it to stagnate for many years.

Aye, very very possible.

Yes. In fact I strongly believe the hybrid will be based on the 8.5GB/30GB double sided variety.

I thought achieving TL was still aways away...

Of course they did . Look at mckmass's chart . dvd players in pcs in just hte usa alone outsold stand alone players in the world each year .

I'm under the impression that content drives adoption. Content in this instance means movies. But just because a zillion PCs get shipped with DVD-ROMs does not mean the owners watched movies on these drives. DVD players/recorders have been commoditized and as such are just included essentially 'for free' now. That is, people get DVD drives because they still run CD-roms and there is no reason not to get them.

That does not mean DVD drives, however, drove the actual adoption of DVDs simply because very few people watch DVD movies on their PCs as opposed to watching them on home electronic DVD players.

So what br-r isn't bluray ?

A BR-R drive is coming out for $400 soon? Maybe that means BR is gearing up for the mass market.

Once again its all about money. If there is a war people will shy away from placing money on either format . The movie studios want to make money . So if they aren't making money on those two formats they will try to find something they will make money on . Its very simple

Yes, I totally agree that risk/money are the motivators here. Yes, studios may be gun shy about committing to HD-DVD or BR. But that does not mean they're going to support HVD which will have far far less hardware support than either HD-DVD or BR. In other words, why would studios try to back a format which is far far riskier (at this point) than either HD-DVD or BR?

Sure , if its a hack then bluray is a hack .

Old joke.

It produces better image quality. I've seen it and with more storage space the bit rate will increase or you can move on to less compressed codecs . A movie on hvd will look better than bluray or hd-dvd .

Yes, superbit is better PQ. No, HVD will not look better than SL BR or DL HD-DVD because the codecs used will be the same. Are broadcasters going to recode movies? If not, then they're not about to broadcast higher bit broadcasts which means they will stick with whatever they use now or something worse.

There will be people making them. The storage space is way to large for the pc sector not to adopt it . With that scale will come very quickly as the pc market is much bigger than the home market .

Yea, I can see it selling to the PC sector. But as I believe the two markets are fairly independent, I don't see the success in the PC side driving adoption for the home electronics side.

I don't know when tls are coming out . If its next year it will still give a huge advantage , if its two years from now it could come at an important time and give hd-dvd mroe steam or renewed life or allow it to steam roll over bluray depending on how its doing .

Yes, HD-DVD needs TL to compete against BR (assuming BR works out their own kinks).

Its a big factor when stores like blockbuster have only so much space .

I absolutely agree and have often used the limited shelf space argument against multiple SKUs. Yes, this is where HD-DVD hybrid discs could have a big advantage.

 

[jvd]

I'm under the impression that content drives adoption. Content in this instance means movies. But just because a zillion PCs get shipped with DVD-ROMs does not mean the owners watched movies on these drives. DVD players/recorders have been commoditized and as such are just included essentially 'for free' now. That is, people get DVD drives because they still run CD-roms and there is no reason not to get them

ya . dvd-roms were in the majority . They sold the most and most likely still more roms than players .

Same will hold true for bluray / hd-dvd .

Yes, I totally agree that risk/money are the motivators here. Yes, studios may be gun shy about committing to HD-DVD or BR. But that does not mean they're going to support HVD which will have far far less hardware support than either HD-DVD or BR. In other words, why would studios try to back a format which is far far riskier (at this point) than either HD-DVD or BR?

Except hvd by its very size of storage will assure its adoption over bluray and hd-dvd in the pc sector and there will be a big installed base at some point for the hardware . After that its just a trial task of making a decoder to put in the player and ship it as a tv player

Yes, superbit is better PQ. No, HVD will not look better than SL BR or DL HD-DVD because the codecs used will be the same. Are broadcasters going to recode movies? If not, then they're not about to broadcast higher bit broadcasts which means they will stick with whatever they use now or something worse.

Sorry do you have info on what codec hvd will use ?

No you don't , so don't claim things you don't know . hvd wont come out till at least 2007 which will mean it has acess to codecs not even finished now , codecs that thse two formats wont be able to use

The higher bitrate and better compression will make a better image . Its very simple .

Yea, I can see it selling to the PC sector. But as I believe the two markets are fairly independent, I don't see the success in the PC side driving adoption for the home electronics side.

to bad , your missing out on the big picture then .

Personal for the first 3 years i used a dvd rom in my pc to watch movies . Since there was no mpeg 2 decoder hardware or anything else , just the drive and the ide connector and control board , it was much cheaper than a stand alone player . most people i know did that . You also had the option right off the bad of progressive mode on the movis that supported it .

Yes, HD-DVD needs TL to compete against BR (assuming BR works out their own kinks).

na dl hd-dvd will do just fine against br , however a tl will give hd-dvd many advantages .

 

[Ty]

Except hvd by its very size of storage will assure its adoption over bluray and hd-dvd in the pc sector and there will be a big installed base at some point for the hardware . After that its just a trial task of making a decoder to put in the player and ship it as a tv player

Not many consumers are going to be buying the home version of HVD without the content. Content providers are already lined up behind either HD-DVD or BR.

Believe, I wish HVD would just take over but it's just not likely imo.

Sorry do you have info on what codec hvd will use ?

No you don't , so don't claim things you don't know . hvd wont come out till at least 2007 which will mean it has acess to codecs not even finished now , codecs that thse two formats wont be able to use

And when you were saying HVD could use better codecs you got that from where? Please show me that manufacturers are moving towards better fidelity by decreasing bitrate. Then please address my comment about broadcasters and their desire to reduce bitrate as well.

The higher bitrate and better compression will make a better image . Its very simple .

And when did I ever say it wouldn't?

to bad , your missing out on the big picture then .

Too bad, I think you're making up a situation that doesn't exist. Just show me one article that proves that PC adoption of the DVD drives spurned adoption of DVD players in the home.

Personal for the first 3 years i used a dvd rom in my pc to watch movies . Since there was no mpeg 2 decoder hardware or anything else , just the drive and the ide connector and control board , it was much cheaper than a stand alone player . most people i know did that . You also had the option right off the bad of progressive mode on the movis that supported it .

Yea, and home PC use is still very basic for the vast majority of PC owners. Like Buford T. Smith is going to play a DVD movie on his PC when he could kick back on his couch, put his feet up, have his hand on a beer, and the other on a remote.

na dl hd-dvd will do just fine against br , however a tl will give hd-dvd many advantages .

DL HD-DVD may NOT be a good compromise if one layer can't handle a 2HR movie. TL would give it the hybrid disc a decent chance imo if the price is right. And no, I don't think $20 bucks is at all likely for a hybrid disc, at least not for awhile.

 

[PC-Engine]

Yet if BR can scale up to 8 layers then HD-DVD will truly be left behind as even their roadmap does not lend itself to that many layers.

Sorry not interested in IF scenarios. By the time 8 layer BR becomes affordable you'll be seeing HVDs leaving BR behind not to mention BR players might not even be compatible with the 8 layer BRDs.

Yes, adoption in the PC space is probably far easier than the home electronics side of things. That said, I still don't see any proof that sales in the Pc sector drove adoption in the home electronics side.

That's not why I brought up HVD. HVD will sell in the PC sector whether Hollywood backs it or not. Once the tech is cheap enough you may see Hollywood backing it since it will be ideal as a single movie format.

Maybe in the PC sector but surely not the home electronics side.

With a single HVD format, Hollywood will be pretty happy to jump on the HVD wagon.

Well if studios on either side aren't exclusive, then perhaps consumers won't need to buy two different players.

Again IF scenarios. We can IF till the cows come home but it isn't going to change what's to be. I highly doubt TW will release movies on BR and CTS on HD DVD.

I thought achieving TL was still aways away...

What are you talking about? TL SS 45GB are still aways away not DS Hybrids...in fact NEC made a public demonstration of the working hybrid.

 

[Ty]

I thought achieving TL was still aways away...

What are you talking about? TL SS 45GB are still aways away not DS Hybrids...in fact NEC made a public demonstration of the working hybrid.

As for stores they wont matter much in the future. Actuall if the tri layer hd-dvd discs with the dl dvd print on the third layer are a reality it will most likely be hd-dvd getting space as they wouldn't have to cary dvd discs anymore .

jvd brought up the idea of using TL for hybrids so I just followed his lead.


Oh and yes, I agree that a certain amount of faith is required on both sides to believe in the possibilities.

 

[PC-Engine]

jvd is just mixing up hybrid with TL HD DVDs.

Hybrid HD DVDs are 38GBs. They are double sided. One side is a dual layer 30GB HD DVD and the other side is a regular dual layer DVD.
TL HD DVDs are 45GBs single sided.

 

[jvd]

jvd is just mixing up hybrid with TL HD DVDs.

Hybrid HD DVDs are 38GBs. They are double sided. One side is a dual layer 30GB HD DVD and the other side is a regular dual layer DVD.
TL HD DVDs are 45GBs single sided.

Ya sorry about that , way to many diffrent disc types to keep track of haha

 

[PC-Engine]

You know what's great about HVD? It's backwards compatible with DVD and hence HD DVD.

 

[jvd]

Not many consumers are going to be buying the home version of HVD without the content. Content providers are already lined up behind either HD-DVD or BR.

Believe, I wish HVD would just take over but it's just not likely imo.

No they wont , but content will come . look you walk into a store a best buy if you will . You see a quad layer bluray disc that holds 100 gigs and say a blank disc is 10$ and the drive is 200$ . You then see a hvd recorder and the blank disc if 50$ and the drive is say 600-700$

Now your someone who obvously needs the space if your looking at the 100 gig bluray discs . So what do you buy ? Well even though the hvd player is more expensive in the long run it would be cheaper. Because in my example at 50$ you either get 1 terabyte of space or 500 gigs but u need 5 discs .

Now of course recordable and roms in the pc sector will sell. That is just alot of storage space that the pc sector wont ignore .

Once that base gets going media outlets are going to make content for it , games , movies and whatever else . Then u will see the home players come out . I know if i have a hvd and i take a home movie and put it on hvd (or perhaps a hvd camcorder that uses a smaller form factor disc) , i'm going to want to show my family on our tv . So the players will start to sell .

I'm sure in 2007 if that is when it comes out , they will move slowly but after awhile they will pick up steam . Hell 1 terabyte of room in a tivo form would fill up rather quickly with hdtv standards .

And when you were saying HVD could use better codecs you got that from where? Please show me that manufacturers are moving towards better fidelity by decreasing bitrate. Then please address my comment about broadcasters and their desire to reduce bitrate as well.

They have no choice but to reduce bitrate . You honestly think that hbo wants to send out a hdtv signal using insanely high bitrates ? That costs money to support the data flow .

HVD can simply use better codecs because it will be released later , its simple logic . Something in 2007 or 2008 is going to have acess to something released in 2005/2008 .

And when did I ever say it wouldn't?

No, HVD will not look better than SL BR or DL HD-DVD because the codecs used will be the same

That is where u said it .

Too bad, I think you're making up a situation that doesn't exist. Just show me one article that proves that PC adoption of the DVD drives spurned adoption of DVD players in the home.

Mckmass showed numbers proving that the adoption rate in the pc sector drove the adoption rates all over . It was out selling stand alones by huge margins . That is what made the installed base of dvd players worth producing content for. If you can't grasp that then there is no point in talking to you .

Yea, and home PC use is still very basic for the vast majority of PC owners. Like Buford T. Smith is going to play a DVD movie on his PC when he could kick back on his couch, put his feet up, have his hand on a beer, and the other on a remote.

Perhaps not . That doesn't mean people wont use the pc . That doesn't mean that dvd producers ignored the fact that in 2002 there were more dvd rom drives in the usa than dvd stand alone players in the world .
Because people used them for movies , when at work on break , or thier laptops on a plane . They used them and for you to argue other wise is rediclous

 

[PC-Engine]

Did I mention that HVD will be backwards compatible with DVD and HD DVD? 8)

 

[Sovere]

Did I mention that HVD will be backwards compatible with DVD and HD DVD? 8)

I could care less about that. I just want more storage!

 

[PC-Engine]

Did I mention that HVD will be backwards compatible with DVD and HD DVD? 8)

I could care less about that. I just want more storage!

I do too, but it's good to know HD DVDs I plan to buy will also work on a potential future UHD movie format.

 

[mckmas8808]

Did I mention that HVD will be backwards compatible with DVD and HD DVD? 8)

I could care less about that. I just want more storage!

I do too, but it's good to know HD DVDs I plan to buy will also work on a potential future UHD movie format.

Explain to me why it will not be backwards compatible with Blu-ray. Is it the disc structure?

 

[TrungGap]

Not many consumers are going to be buying the home version of HVD without the content. Content providers are already lined up behind either HD-DVD or BR.

IMO, PC market do drive the consumer electronics market, without the need of content providers. How? Let's look at the number of MP3 players are out there? How many of them existed before the likes of iTunes. Plenty. This was the case that market drive the need for these devices. Also, we starting to see a lot of DivX stand alone players out there too. How many studios released movies using DivX codec? Clearly we see evidence that the PC market can drive consumer electronics market. And slowly now we're starting to see concession on the studios...or else the likes of iTunes would not exist. Okay, so maybe MP3 and DivX might not be not a good examples...How about SD memory card? We're starting to get those on a lot of tv's and other devices.

So the question is can HVD on the PC market drive the consumer electronic and force the studios to do the same? Absolutely! Why?

We are slowly entering the blurring of PC and consumer electronics. Noticed I didn't quite use *convergence*? HTPC is starting to blossom quite nicely. It will force both the consumer electronic to play nice or else it will replace it. People will hack whether it's BR or HD DVD, to have its content on their pc (HVD). No doubt about it. So why not just embrace it and offer it? So now more than ever, we seeing the synergy between the two markets.

HVD is not ready for primetime, and we are badly in need of a solution. This sounds to me that a stop gap solution is needed. Because unless BR can compete with HVD technically in the long term, HD DVD sounds like the better solution. Why? Hybrid format allows a slow migration for those not ready. Secondly, cost to manufacturers (not consumers - in the end BR and HD DVD will cost the same to consumers). It wins in the mind and heart of average consumers. When they buy a hybrid HD DVD, they know it will play on their main entertain system that support HD DVD and the dvd player in kitchen.

From the studio prespective. HD content is not something you get for free. And we already know what we can expect from them. So the size difference between BR and HD DVD, isn't going to make that much difference. Yes, with BR you're going to get higher bitrate, and thus better image quality. However, the studios remember the war between VHS and BetaMax. BetaMax offers better image, but it's not something that consumer was demanding for given the current situation. Remember, the studios are not out sell you on technically quality of their movies. They out to sell movies.

For consumers, coming from DVD to HD DVD, most consumers would be happy with just that. Heck, most consumers are happy with progress scan dvd players (Yes, it sounds like I'm joking...but a lot of people are still watching dvd on a non-hd tv and still thinks it's great).

Unfortunately, there's a flaw in my case...Why should the PC market adopt HVD? Why not adopt HD DVD or BR? Personally, I doubt the PC market will adopt HD DVD, because it's too limiting...it will fade like many other formats that existed on PC market. So basically we're really have to deal with BR and HVD.

 

[Ty]

IMO, PC market do drive the consumer electronics market, without the need of content providers. How? Let's look at the number of MP3 players are out there? How many of them existed before the likes of iTunes. Plenty. This was the case that market drive the need for these devices.

Well I don't quite agree with this example simply because the "Content Providers" in the case of mp3s were the combination of consumers who already had the content in the form of CDs and the distribution network in the form of illegal services (P2P, first gen Napster).

That is, imagine a world without the easy ability to share files and burn mp3s. Do you think the iPod would have succeeded? I don't. But the content was already there and then the commercialization of content happened afterwards.

Also, we starting to see a lot of DivX stand alone players out there too. How many studios released movies using DivX codec?

Yes, this is true that DivX is being supported by stand alone players. However, do you see any players out there that *only* support DivX? That would be far more accurate example, would it not? Adding in DivX support is likely to be fairly trivial to a stand alone player as it's simply another codec.

Clearly we see evidence that the PC market can drive consumer electronics market. And slowly now we're starting to see concession on the studios...or else the likes of iTunes would not exist.

I'm not saying that there is zero crossover but for now, I remain unconvinced. But hey, I'm *open* to the idea, really. So if proof of this surfaces or I read editorials from some industry insiders, I'll be happy to change my tune!

Okay, so maybe MP3 and DivX might not be not a good examples...How about SD memory card? We're starting to get those on a lot of tv's and other devices.

Adding in functionality to pre-existing equipment isn't enough proof to me. Again, the TV portion has tons of existing content so tacking on a SD slot doesn't quite compare to a stand alone HVD player that will only play HVDs.

But you bring up a question for me that I hadn't considered. Can HVD players play standard DVDs or CDs? I presume not from what jvd said but thought I would make sure.

 

[Megadrive1988]

perhaps for PS4?

I would say that yes, PS4 will most likely use *some* holographic disc technology, even if it is a different, competing holographic disc format
(i.e. Sony's). since new disc formats have been adopted for every new Playstation system, I think that trend will continue with PS4.

 

[TrungGap]

Yes, this is true that DivX is being supported by stand alone players. However, do you see any players out there that *only* support DivX? That would be far more accurate example, would it not? Adding in DivX support is likely to be fairly trivial to a stand alone player as it's simply another codec.

Adding PC codecs to home electronics is not a trivial matter. First, there's the issue of licensing the codec. Second, many of these codecs were developed on a general CPU, not a dedicated IC, so there's a much higher cost factor here. So, it's not a freebie feature they threw in making their product different from another.

I'm not saying that there is zero crossover but for now, I remain unconvinced. But hey, I'm *open* to the idea, really. So if proof of this surfaces or I read editorials from some industry insiders, I'll be happy to change my tune!

I knew you would tried shot down my MP3/DivX argument. But not in the way you did. I guess I wasn't really clear. What I was trying to say, is MP3 and DivX are pretty much a common codec on the PC. No consumer electronics devices had them before. It was the demand from the PC market that drove electronics market to build devices that supported the PC codecs. How, my argument is if (and this is a big IF) HVD becomes a standard on the PC. This will in turn create a demand for consumer electronics devices that will support HVD, based on what we've seen happened to codecs. If there's a demand, they will build/sell it...you can get your MP3 via online or on SD.

I thought you would approach my argument differently. And it's simply easy to shoot down my argument for HVD. The need for MP3 and DivX is because of store constraint. If we removed that constraint, it wouldn't be an issue. We sort of know what kind of quality we can expect from the studios, right? And the bar is not very high. I can see BR easily satisfying that requirement. The consumer would not need to find an alternative. Yes, you can argue that more space means higher bitrate, but it's a diminishing return after certain point when you consider the source. And if the consumers are not demanding it, nobody going build it.

However, from a pure technically point of view, HVD is better than BR. So anyone arguing BR's technically superiority over HD DVD, would have to realize that HD DVD is not meant as an long term solution. So in the end they have to compete against HVD. So putting technically differences, they try to rush the market before HVD. Hopefully, setting themselves to be the standard. But this is where I see HD DVD is a stop gap, until HVD. Why should manfacturers have to retools themselves for BR, now when HD DVD requires minor changes? And wait when critical mass demand for HD video. Right now, only the bleeding edge blokes want HD right now. So to please everyone, ofter hybrid HD DVD for those living on the bleeding edge while still maintaining compatibility for regular joes; at the same time not waste money retooling.

Can HVD players play standard DVDs or CDs?

*According to Toshiba, it should be able to read both DVD and CD. Since it has blue and red lasers.

 

[Ty]

Adding PC codecs to home electronics is not a trivial matter. First, there's the issue of licensing the codec. Second, many of these codecs were developed on a general CPU, not a dedicated IC, so there's a much higher cost factor here. So, it's not a freebie feature they threw in making their product different from another.

Ok, let's assume adding in DivX is not trivial. Yet the analogy is still flawed because these are not only-DivX players. That is, these players that are being sold to the consumers play all sorts of other content that already exists.

For your analogy to work, wouldn't you need to show the production of and sale of DivX only players?

I knew you would tried shot down my MP3/DivX argument. But not in the way you did. I guess I wasn't really clear. What I was trying to say, is MP3 and DivX are pretty much a common codec on the PC. No consumer electronics devices had them before.

Ok, I'm following you so far.

It was the demand from the PC market that drove electronics market to build devices that supported the PC codecs.

Yes but as I stated before, the content for iPods and such already existed. When did iPods debut? Wouldn't you say that the proliferation of mp3s (the content) was already fairly widespread by the time the iPod came out?

Again, the argument is that content drives the adoption. IF HVD doesn't have the content, then it won't get the adoption in the home electronics side.

How, my argument is if (and this is a big IF) HVD becomes a standard on the PC. This will in turn create a demand for consumer electronics devices that will support HVD, based on what we've seen happened to codecs. If there's a demand, they will build/sell it...you can get your MP3 via online or on SD.

Again, adding in DivX to pre-existing equipment is not the same argument as building stand alone HVD-only players. Do you think people are buying these stand alone DVD/DivX players solely because they happen to playback DivX?

*According to Toshiba, it should be able to read both DVD and CD. Since it has blue and red lasers.

Interesting. jvd was mentioning that HVD players do NOT spin the media. To me that means that they would have a hard time reading bog-standard DVDs/CDs.

 

[TrungGap]

For your analogy to work, wouldn't you need to show the production of and sale of DivX only players?

No my point is there's a demand that drive the market, regardless of conent providers supporting it.

Yes but as I stated before, the content for iPods and such already existed. When did iPods debut? Wouldn't you say that the proliferation of mp3s (the content) was already fairly widespread by the time the iPod came out?

Again, the argument is that content drives the adoption. IF HVD doesn't have the content, then it won't get the adoption in the home electronics side.

This point was to show that if needed, the consumer will rip the content from whatever media it was from to a different media. And sooner or later, the content providers will need to react. Either they embrace it or fight it. If HVD was a standard on the PC, and people use PC to create home video...which would mean they'll be likely to create video on HVD. And they will want one unified standard between PC and the studios. The studios will need no need to hold onto a different standard.

Again, adding in DivX to pre-existing equipment is not the same argument as building stand alone HVD-only players. Do you think people are buying these stand alone DVD/DivX players solely because they happen to playback DivX?

Actually, the main reason why a lot of these devices existed because they sold on the fact they play back DivX. If DivX playback was marginalized, then they wouldn't command a price premium over existing DVD players. The poeple who brought DivX players are not buying a DVD player with DivX capability as an added value. They brought it because it's a DivX player that happens to play DVD also.

So if we were to use you argument and ask...would a consumer buy a BR disk, if it won't play on a DVD player? Since DVD players are pretty much pre-existing equipment. Where as hybid HD DVD disks and players will have greater interpool than BR. And future HVD player will play existing DVD also.

Interesting. jvd was mentioning that HVD players do NOT spin the media. To me that means that they would have a hard time reading bog-standard DVDs/CDs.

Huh? HVD (Holographic Versatile Disc)...are we talking about the same thing?
http://www.optware.co.jp/english/what_040823.htm

 

[PC-Engine]

So the question is can HVD on the PC market drive the consumer electronic and force the studios to do the same? Absolutely!

And proof of that is the good old HDD.

Can HVD players play standard DVDs or CDs?

Yes they can and not just because Toshiba recently said so. In fact the original engineering goals for HVD was to be able to read the hundreds of millions of CDs and DVDs that are already out there. HVD drives have two lasers a red one and a blue or green one. It's a trivial matter for HVD to read HD DVDs since they were designed to read DVDs.

Personally I wouldn't mind paying more for a HVD drive if it allows massive storage while at the same time allowing backwards compatibility with CDs, DVDs, and HD DVDs.

Interesting. jvd was mentioning that HVD players do NOT spin the media. To me that means that they would have a hard time reading bog-standard DVDs/CDs.

You're mixing up HVDs and HVCs. Both are based on holography, but one is a disc and the other is a card.