Holographic Disc to Store One Terabyte of Data

[mckmas8808]

Personally I wouldn't mind paying more for a HVD drive if it allows massive storage while at the same time allowing backwards compatibility with CDs, DVDs, and HD DVDs

Well my question was also, why can't HVD be backwards compatitible with Blu-ray? Is it because of the disc stucture?

 

[PC-Engine]

Personally I wouldn't mind paying more for a HVD drive if it allows massive storage while at the same time allowing backwards compatibility with CDs, DVDs, and HD DVDs

Well my question was also, why can't HVD be backwards compatitible with Blu-ray? Is it because of the disc stucture?

Don't know if it can or cannot. All I know is the Optware designed HVD to be able to read CDs and DVDs. BR needs a totally difference lens aperture from what's already built into HVD readers. Technically it probably can be done but it will be a lot more difficult and expensive.

 

[Ty]

They have no choice but to reduce bitrate . You honestly think that hbo wants to send out a hdtv signal using insanely high bitrates ? That costs money to support the data flow .

And that is my point. You are saying HVD will use better codecs that do what? Increase PQ while decreasing bitrate? I am saying HVD won't change what I believe the industry is moving towards, decreased bitrates wherever they can.

HVD can simply use better codecs because it will be released later , its simple logic . Something in 2007 or 2008 is going to have acess to something released in 2005/2008 .

Yes, I would assume HVD could use later codecs. Unlike you, I am NOT assuming they will have better PQ. So really, you have to prove that the codecs will have better PQ.

And when did I ever say it wouldn't?

No, HVD will not look better than SL BR or DL HD-DVD because the codecs used will be the same

That is where u said it .

No, that's not what it's in reference to. "When did I ever say it wouldn't?" was in reference to your claim that higher bit rates mean better PQ. I agree with this and have never stated otherwise, which is why I asked, "When did I ever say it wouldn't?"

The second quoted phrase above is to my belief that HVD will not use codecs that increase bit rate over what you will find on BR. I could absolutely be wrong about this but that is my belief.

Mckmass showed numbers proving that the adoption rate in the pc sector drove the adoption rates all over . It was out selling stand alones by huge margins . That is what made the installed base of dvd players worth producing content for. If you can't grasp that then there is no point in talking to you .

All you need to do is show me a single article from an industry outsider that agrees with you. Really. Just showing me numbers that could easily be considered coincidental sales isn't proving your point. Or you could show me the #s of average consumers who watch DVDs on their PC. That would prove to me that my assumption is wrong.

No my point is there's a demand that drive the market, regardless of conent providers supporting it.

Ok, that is your argument but your DivX analogy doesn't work because content already exists for DivX/DVD players, yes?

Secondly there is a myriad of technology that enters the PC sector that don't end up driving any adoption over to the home electronics side, MO drives, & Zip Drives (wildly popular) just to name two.

This point was to show that if needed, the consumer will rip the content from whatever media it was from to a different media. And sooner or later, the content providers will need to react. Either they embrace it or fight it.

Or they could ignore it.

If HVD was a standard on the PC, and people use PC to create home video...which would mean they'll be likely to create video on HVD. And they will want one unified standard between PC and the studios. The studios will need no need to hold onto a different standard.

Ok. Hmm, I'm trying to think of an example where massive storage from the PC side spurned adoption of the media type over to the home electronics side.... Is there one?

Actually, the main reason why a lot of these devices existed because they sold on the fact they play back DivX. If DivX playback was marginalized, then they wouldn't command a price premium over existing DVD players. The poeple who brought DivX players are not buying a DVD player with DivX capability as an added value. They brought it because it's a DivX player that happens to play DVD also.

Ok, this would back up your argument. Do you have sales figures to illustrate that adoption is really happening then?

So if we were to use you argument and ask...would a consumer buy a BR disk, if it won't play on a DVD player?

That's not my argument. My argument would be, "Would a consumer buy a BR player, if BR movie content did not exist?" And my belief is no.

Just like, "Would a consumer buy a HVD player if HVD movies did not exist?" And my belief is no.

I personally don't believe the average consumer is going to buy HVD players without HVD content. As I understand it, your argument is that the content would be there from the PC side. But unlike mp3s, which is just transforming existing content (from CDs), HVD content from the PC side would be what? Home movies? Transfers from existing DVDs? Maybe the latter makes a bit of sense for DVD sets but that still seems quite niche to me.

Since DVD players are pretty much pre-existing equipment. Where as hybid HD DVD disks and players will have greater interpool than BR. And future HVD player will play existing DVD also.

Now this is beginning to make sense for adoption of HVD players but does not tie into your argument that the PC side can drive adoption.

That is, HVD adoption into the home electronics side could be far far easier if these players play both DVDs and HVDs. But again, at this point we are not talking about the PC version of HVD drives spurring on HVD adopting in the living room.

Huh? HVD (Holographic Versatile Disc)...are we talking about the same thing?

These discs don't move .They use multi lasers that move to read the data instead . Allowing them to reach very high speeds that bluray and hd-dvd simply wont hit .

I dunno. I am getting my information from jvd (page 5).

To PC-Engine,

Thanks for the information. It would seem that Toshida should just drop HD-DVD and push HVD as the next standard. They would save on retooling plants AND kill BR spec-wise.

And I got my information from jvd about the discs not moving.

I would LOVE for HVD to become the new standard based on what little I know of it.

 

[mckmas8808]

I would LOVE for HVD to become the new standard based on what little I know of it.

I really don't want it to. And I'm thinking if Toshiba were to ditch HD-DVD and get behind HVD would the support follow them? Would the movie studios that are willing to put movie content on HD-DVD willing to wait extra time to have hardware show their content on a massive scale?

See to me this is the next question that some people will start to ask. Can the PS3's massive sales overcome the obvious technical advantage that HVD has. I think it does but that's just my opinion. What do you guys think?

 

[Ty]

I would LOVE for HVD to become the new standard based on what little I know of it.

I really don't want it to. And I'm thinking if Toshiba were to ditch HD-DVD and get behind HVD would the support follow them? Would the movie studios that are willing to put movie content on HD-DVD willing to wait extra time to have hardware show their content on a massive scale?

Well that's the whole point of my stance.

I would LOVE for HVD to become the next standard. But I question whether it really will because everyone is lined up behind either BR or HD-DVD at this point.

 

[TrungGap]

Ok. Hmm, I'm trying to think of an example where massive storage from the PC side spurned adoption of the media type over to the home electronics side.... Is there one?

SD to name an external/removable media. However, HDD are commonly used in TiVo like devices.

Ok, this would back up your argument. Do you have sales figures to illustrate that adoption is really happening then?

Unfortuantely, you got me there...However, DivX Networks announced that 20M DVD players shipped in 2004 incorporated it's technology. And currently, it has 18,000 titles for download.

That's not my argument. My argument would be, "Would a consumer buy a BR player, if BR movie content did not exist?" And my belief is no.

Just like, "Would a consumer buy a HVD player if HVD movies did not exist?" And my belief is no.

I personally don't believe the average consumer is going to buy HVD players without HVD content. As I understand it, your argument is that the content would be there from the PC side. But unlike mp3s, which is just transforming existing content (from CDs), HVD content from the PC side would be what? Home movies? Transfers from existing DVDs? Maybe the latter makes a bit of sense for DVD sets but that still seems quite niche to me.

SD is media commonly used by people to create their own content. We can't discount personal content creation as a small niche. In the past, when consumer electronics and PC market had very little interaction, I would totally agree with you. However, with the line between both markets are blurring, I see a need for a unified storage/media.

This the reason MS had a hard time deciding whether to include HD DVD or BR. With so many unknowns, MS reacts just like average consumer would do...wait...and look for a solution that offer a slow migration path.

DVD -> Hybrid HD DVD -> HVD

 

[jvd]

Ty , your point about divx players not being stand alone make no sense . As I can apply that to dvd players . Would dvd players have succeded if they couldn't bank on thier cd support to sell them ?

After all I don't know any dvd player is just a dvd player

 

[ShootMyMonkey]

Well my question was also, why can't HVD be backwards compatitible with Blu-ray? Is it because of the disc stucture?

As far as I know, the structure of HVD is based on optical exposure as opposed to diffractive pits. It's possible that the only real reason the drive is compatible with CD and DVD is because of the laser frequency.

Yes, I would assume HVD could use later codecs. Unlike you, I am NOT assuming they will have better PQ. So really, you have to prove that the codecs will have better PQ.

Well, that's something I wonder about. In the case of DVD to blue laser discs, you have a corresponding content change from standard definition to HD. Would the same thing happen going from blue discs to HVD? If not, I'd expect improved picture quality not so much as a result of better codecs, but because far higher bitrates could be afforded as a result of capacity.

 

[MechanizedDeath]

BR can read DVD and CD, and Sony claims to have a hybrid laser that can read all three formats. I don't see why HVD couldn't read BR. It's a laser afterall. It's not like it's a UV (if such a thing exists) or X-Ray laser or anything. I assume whatever standard picks up in the wake of the BRD/HD-DVD fallout (assuming they both fail miserably) would be backwards compatible with standards before it. If not already, through future revisions to the spec. PEACE.

 

[Ty]

SD to name an external/removable media. However, HDD are commonly used in TiVo like devices.

HDDs have existed in PCs for decades before coming to Consumer Electronic devices. Can you really say HDDs in the PC sector drove adoption over to the consumer if it took decades to do so?

SDs are newer yes, but this is no different than your DivX argument and thus subject to the same counter-argument - the TVs that have SD card slots in them are primarily TVs first, SD readers second (by a large margin I would add).

HVD players will be HVD players first and foremost. Unless we consider HVD players that can play DVDs/CDroms - but then this alters the argument somewhat but would certainly ease adoption.

<snipped stuff>

I just snipped the stuff we just disagree upon - consumers creating their content on PCs and thus driving the adoption over to home electronics.

Ty , your point about divx players not being stand alone make no sense . As I can apply that to dvd players . Would dvd players have succeded if they couldn't bank on thier cd support to sell them ?

After all I don't know any dvd player is just a dvd player

What would be your answer to the question you posed of me? "Would dvd players have succeded if they couldn't bank on thier cd support to sell them ?"

 

[MfA]

Who cares about consumer electronic devices? HVD will never gain the support of the media companies in this decade. IT might not be as large a market but it is still huge, backup managed to push CD-R ... and it can push HVD. Hell, they should avoid working together with any hardware company affiliated with media companies at this point. They will do nothing but try to scuttle them.

 

[Ty]

Who cares about consumer electronic devices? HVD will never gain the support of the media companies in this decade.

Why don't you think the media companies (I presume you mean the likes of movie studios, etc.) won't back HVD?

 

[scooby_dooby]

If there's alreayd an accepted standard for HD-Movies, what's the benefit of adopting yet another?

Eventually blu-ray or HD-DVD should be able to hold ~50GB or more(for blu-ray) so there's really no benefit to having 100 or 200GB, it's really unnessescary for the resolutions were talking about, 1080p.

However, if a victor is not crowned, and HVD becomes mainstay in PC's in the next few years, then it's only inevitable that it moves in as the standard HD media, that's IF neither blu-ray or HD-DVD become the standard in teh next few years.

 

[PC-Engine]

BR can read DVD and CD, and Sony claims to have a hybrid laser that can read all three formats. I don't see why HVD couldn't read BR. It's a laser afterall. It's not like it's a UV (if such a thing exists) or X-Ray laser or anything. I assume whatever standard picks up in the wake of the BRD/HD-DVD fallout (assuming they both fail miserably) would be backwards compatible with standards before it. If not already, through future revisions to the spec. PEACE.

It's not just about the laser. Going by your logic HD DVD drives could easily be made to read BRDs. Anything is possible, but what's relevant is how easy would it be to make HVD drives read BRDs. There's a difference between forwards and backwards cross compatibility between BR, DVD, and HVD. Look at it this way, a standard DVD player could be made to read HD DVD will nothing more than a blue laser since DVDs and HD DVDs have the same disc structure. OTOH a standard DVD player cannot be made to read BRDs with just a blue laser. It'll need a special single OPU, but with a dual lense.

 

[ShootMyMonkey]

Sony claims to have a hybrid laser that can read all three formats

A... "hybrid" laser? What is a hybrid laser? One that runs on both gas and electric? I'm pretty sure this hybrid laser of which you speak is really just a single assembly that contains two laser emitters of two different frequencies.

 

[MechanizedDeath]

Sony claims to have a hybrid laser that can read all three formats

A... "hybrid" laser? What is a hybrid laser? One that runs on both gas and electric? I'm pretty sure this hybrid laser of which you speak is really just a single assembly that contains two laser emitters of two different frequencies.

Hybrid cars use electric and gas, hence the term, "hybrid". I didn't come up with the term, I believe that's what KK or someone else referred to it as. It's like the PS2's single laser assembly for DVDs whereas, early DVD players used multiple lasers. It's just cutting down on the number of parts. I didn't intend to make it some like some science-fiction project or anything. AFAIK, the word hybrid is very much appropriate by definition.

hy·brid Audio pronunciation of "hybrid" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hbrd)
n.

1. Genetics. The offspring of genetically dissimilar parents or stock, especially the offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties, species, or races.
2.
1. Something of mixed origin or composition.
2. Something, such as a computer or power plant, having two kinds of components that produce the same or similar results.
3. A word whose elements are derived from different languages.

It's not just about the laser. Going by your logic HD DVD drives could easily be made to read BRDs. Anything is possible, but what's relevant is how easy would it be to make HVD drives read BRDs. There's a difference between forwards and backwards cross compatibility between BR, DVD, and HVD. Look at it this way, a standard DVD player could be made to read HD DVD will nothing more than a blue laser since DVDs and HD DVDs have the same disc structure. OTOH a standard DVD player cannot be made to read BRDs with just a blue laser. It'll need a special single OPU, but with a dual lense.

I have no idea what you're getting at. If they want to make it compatible, it's very much feasible. The principle is pretty simple. Do you think HVDs can read DVD/CD by default with no prior modification? No. The compatibility would have been built into the spec. There's nothing stopping them from doing the same for BRD. And I believe BRD and HD-DVD have much more in common than HD-DVD and HVD. The principles behind reading holographic data and reading "pits" on a regular optical disc are different (thank you Scientific American). So unless BRD is made of unobtanium or some other lense array that's unreplicable by any other device, then I'd say it's quite possible and quite likely if so desired by studios/manufacturers. And yes, I think it's just that easy. PEACE.

 

[scooby_dooby]

"And I believe BRD and HD-DVD have much more in common than HD-DVD and HVD"

The point was that HVD was always designed, from day 1, to be BC compatable with CD and DVD.

Because HD-DVD uses the same technology as DVD's, making HVD read HD-DVD's is a trivial matter.

Making it read blu-ray discs would be anything BUT trivial. It would require new components, new technology, would be more expensive, etc etc.

 

[PC-Engine]

"And I believe BRD and HD-DVD have much more in common than HD-DVD and HVD"

The point was that HVD was always designed, from day 1, to be BC compatable with CD and DVD.

Because HD-DVD uses the same technology as DVD's, making HVD read HD-DVD's is a trivial matter.

Making it read blu-ray discs would be anything BUT trivial. It would require new components, new technology, would be more expensive, etc etc.

Exactly, some people need to do some research before posting uninformed assumptions.

 

[MechanizedDeath]

"And I believe BRD and HD-DVD have much more in common than HD-DVD and HVD"

The point was that HVD was always designed, from day 1, to be BC compatable with CD and DVD.

Because HD-DVD uses the same technology as DVD's, making HVD read HD-DVD's is a trivial matter.

Making it read blu-ray discs would be anything BUT trivial. It would require new components, new technology, would be more expensive, etc etc.

So designing it to be compatible with CD/DVD wasn't expensive or difficult, but making it compatible with BRD will be? Am I getting that right? O...K.... Again, HD-DVD/DVD/CD/BRD have more in common with each other than HVD does with any of them. Yet HVD has been made to read two of those formats. Making it read two others that are based on the same optical principles will not be a problem. Can I prove it? No. Not more than explaining that the operational principles of regular optical media and holographic media are a lot more different than the principles of BRD and HD-DVD. But what do I know? I also don't believe a BR drive is gonna be a big cost issue in the PS3. IMO, the functional components that comprise these devices are modular enough that you shouldn't need to redesign the wheel just to make it work. I admit I didn't take many mech. eng. classes, and that I'm more familiar with magnetic properties than optical ones, but maybe you can tell me what's so damn tough about forging compatibility when it's already been done for DVD/CD. What parts of the system are the cost-leaders or the most difficult to re-engineer? I'm quite curious. :? PEACE.

EDIT: BTW, can you substantiate your claim that HD-DVD compatibility will be easier than that of BRD? I don't see how my conclusions (based on the same deductive reasoning yours is) is somehow more flawed. I really don't.

 

[MechanizedDeath]

Exactly, some people need to do some research before posting uninformed assumptions.

That's priceless coming from you. PEACE.