HD-DVD, Blu-ray, and region codes...

PC-Engine said:
It's slow because it requires more processing power to do a specific task. You know of any menu interfaces for computer programs that are Java based?

How many examples do you want? There are complete development tools that are Java-based, as are consumer based products as well. The way you're arguing this makes it quite apparent that you have no idea what Java is and how it compares to a scripting-based language.

Java on PCs is slow compared to i.e. C because one runs on extensive middlelayer (JDK) while the other is compiled to a OS-specific binary executable. This is pretty irrelevant though, no one (except you) is arguing Java isn't fast enough.
 
Phil said:
How many examples do you want? There are complete development tools that are Java-based, as are consumer based products as well. The way you're arguing this makes it quite apparent that you have no idea what Java is and how it compares to a scripting-based language.

Java on PCs is slow compared to i.e. C because one runs on extensive middlelayer (JDK) while the other is compiled to a OS-specific binary executable. This is pretty irrelevant though, no one (except you) is arguing Java isn't fast enough.

Java being used for development has more to do with portability than anything.

Just curious but does even SUN use a Java based OS on their servers?
 
Well believe it or not
http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=14535
In addition, sources at Sony indicate that unlike the PSP, PS3 games will not feature any region code restrictions in the software component. However, the device will support playback of High Definition content through an HDMI digital interface, which features copy protection schemes.
This is from the news that at the PS Meeting in July Kutaragi said it's as if PSP games, where most games don't have region code, were in a transition phase between PS2 and PS3 WRT the global policy.
 
PC-Engine said:
It's slow because it requires more processing power to do a specific task. You know of any menu interfaces for computer programs that are Java based?

If that's the case, than C and C++ are slow because they require "more processing power" than hand-tuned assembly.

There are some cases where Java is not optimal, just like there are some cases where C++ OO features introduce an overhead, so C++ programmers fallback to not using them (e.g. virtual dispatch), but in the majority of cases, Java can be made to run at close to C speeds, as the benchmark I've shown above demonstrates. In fact, there are a significant number of cases where Java will perform better -- when using third party dynamically loaded libraries, Java can inline dynamic method dispatches, whereas C++ can't (static linking vs dynamic linking with reoptimization)

In any case, Java will be much faster than JavaScript.


You know of any menu interfaces for computer programs that are Java based?

Yes, the most popular BitTorrent client, Azureus, is written in Java. Maple, the popular college symbolic math manipulation workbench, is Java. Eclipse and IntelliJ, two of the best development tools out there (IntelliJ ABSOLUTELY DESTROYS Visual Studio) are Java. In fact, Azureus and Eclipse demonstrate why the Myth of slow Java user interfaces comes down to the design of the API toolkit used and the way it is used, and is not inherent in the language.

I've got 10 years Java experience. I've founded, and sold two companies using it. I've written TCP servers that scale to tens of thousands of simultaneous concurrent users, ported codecs and cryptography layers to Java that run faster than C++ counterparts, written 2 compilers, and a ray-tracer using it. I have a pretty good idea of what it's raw performance is like, and "slow" is not a moniker I would use. I would not claim that it will beat C/C++/Fortran in general, but the performance deficit for properly written code is not huge.

Like I said, you are completely ignorant as to the issues with performance and resource consumption in Java, so it is best to close your mouth before you put your foot in it.
 
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OMG! Thankyou one, this is wonderful news!!
 
PC-Engine said:
Java being used for development has more to do with portability than anything.

False. Many languages were portable before Java came along. Java is not the first portable language, nor the first language to run in a virtual machine. Java's merits are primarily the language features, very rich runtime libraries, and security model. Java retains enough of C/C++ syntax to make C++ programmers comfortable, but removes many of the features which tend to drive bugs. The result is a compromise language that is faster to develop in than C++ with the safety of scripting environments, but slower to develop in than say, Ruby/Python, but with performance orders of manitude faster than scripting languages.

Just curious but does even SUN use a Java based OS on their servers?

Large fractions of the internet run on Java based servers. Hell, even the performance-masters Google are using it for Google Talk (Google Talk servers are written in Java).

As for writing the operating system itself in Java, why would that make sense as anything other than a pet-project? Authoring an OS in ANY language is a monumental effort. GNU/Linux took over a decade to get where it is today. BSD derived Unices have been evolving off the same code base for even longer. Solaris is frankly ancient.

Apple didn't even rewrite their own OS. Their using a BSD derived Mach kernel. The only new OS in recent years was BeOS. Back in the 90s, IBM and Apple tried to write a new OS in C++ in a joint effort at Taligent (Remember "Pink" and "Blue") The effort FAILED. C++'s fault? No.

Authoring a new OS means you throw away all your existing device drivers, libraries, etc. It will be sometime before someone writes another OS due to path dependency.

That's why Microsoft got buy for so long on an utterly SHITTY OS.

But in case you want to play, there are many open source JavaOS efforts out there, JNode which is the farthest along, is still in its infancy.
 
Mefisutoferesu said:
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AHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!!!!

LALALA DANCE THE DANCE OF JOY!!!!! WOOHOO!! LALALALA AHAHAHHA!! YAYAYAYAYAY!!

OMG! Thankyou one, this is wonderful news!!

:LOL: You crazy Mefisutoferesu. I feel the same way though. So we get to play Japanese games that don't come out in NA right?
 
Shifty Geezer said:
Wrong forum. Nfactor either needs to shut up or take his personal feuds elsewhere.

So think a idiot from system wars on gamespot (PC-Engine) has a legitmate gripe? lol please
 
Nfactor said:
So think a idiot from system wars on gamespot (PC-Engine) has a legitmate gripe? lol please
Whatever your attitude to PCE (and I may not be alone on this forum in having issues with the guy...) you keep them out of forum discussions.
 
PC-Engine said:
It's not irrelevent. In fact you're proving my point. DVDs can do it when played in a PC.

When played on PC .... ? Even CD can do all that when played on PC. That doesn't mean CDs are equally capable on a DVD player. Ability to do what democoder said on a consumer device is quite different than doing it on a PC.

PC-Engine said:
It's slow because it requires more processing power to do a specific task. You know of any menu interfaces for computer programs that are Java based?

so to add 2 numbers java requires more processing power than C requires to add 2 numbers ? Sometime ago that may have been true when jvms were mostly interpreted but most modern jvm can dynamically convert java byte code to machine code which narrows the gap between C compiled code and jave byte codes.
 
PC-Engine/NEC Avenue/Julie why are you arguing so strongly for a side that lost? No offense, but based on your comments you clearly don't know what you are talking about in this debate.

Relax, and listen to London-Boy and DemoCoder, they understand the technology better than you do. What you are asking for, is worst, not better. I can understand loyalties, but not when it comes to promoting something that is the worst of the two.

Guys, never argue with PC-Engine/NEC Avenue/Julie point to point, but make your replies in general to educate other users on this board. Once you get into a point to point argument with him, it will never end, and he will NEVER agree you are right, no matter how much proof you provide. He argues from a position of ignorant loyality, that will never end.

Sorry if I offended anyone, but just trying to steer things here where we have better dialog. It's not worth getting worked up over something that has already been decided, and if not fully decided something being decided by those we have no influence on.
 
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aaaaa00 said:
To be fair iHD is also a lot more lightweight and a lot easier to wrap your head around.

iHD has about 200 methods and 250 properties.
BDJ has roughly 10,000 methods.

That's 10,000 methods that every single player is going to have to implement and test.

We're talking 20x more complexity, for discs which 99.9% of the time are going to show menus. MENUS!

People point to cellphones as a successful space where Java works, but just let me quote John Carmack on this one:

http://www.armadilloaerospace.com/n.x/johnc/Recent Updates


Now do we really want BD authoring to turn into something like Java in the cellphone space?

Cause that's exactly what it's going to turn into if you force all these CE companies to develop and implement such massively complex systems. And the end result will be that the disc authors will have to slowly figure out what tiny subset of the system is actually reasonably stable and works between all of the players out there, and they'll just end up sticking to that small piece that works. And they'll have to maintain huge test labs to exhaustively validate that everything they write works on every single player. Or they'll have to have multiple code paths to work around different bugs. They might even have to supply patches.

But then why not design the system properly in the first place to be lightweight, easily implementable and testable, and focused on what 99.9% of the discs are going to need?

The point is, sure, iHD might not be as powerful as BDJ, but it's also not as hard to implement, not nearly as complex, and it's designed specifically to meet the requirements for what the vast majority of disc authors need. It's not some catch-all set top box standard that's been shoehorned into being a movie title authoring system.

On the spectrum of capability, HDMV << iHD < BDJ.

HDMV is a very basic menuing system. It's basically DVD's menuing system updated for HD and I believe in both the HD DVD and BD specs you have the option of using classic DVD-style menus for authoring. This was done to allow early discs to be quickly authored since all the disc creators already understand DVD menus, that knowledge can be transferred over pretty quickly.

Both BDJ and iHD completely destroy HDMV in terms of sophistication and feature set.

The reason for iHD to exist is that a bunch of the companies involved think HDMV is not enough and BDJ is overkill.

That sums it up pretty nicely. Thanks aaaaa00.

When played on PC .... ? Even CD can do all that when played on PC. That doesn't mean CDs are equally capable on a DVD player. Ability to do what democoder said on a consumer device is quite different than doing it on a PC.

You missed the point. He's saying BD-J is superior because it alllows you to do all of these other things that even DVDs can do when played in PC. Well if you need all of this extra hardware inside a BD player to take advantage of this feature then it's not really BD-J that's giving you these benefits. It's the extra hardware similar to the extra hardware in a PC. This has nothing to do with iHD which can do the same thing with extra hardware in a HD DVD player.

so to add 2 numbers java requires more processing power than C requires to add 2 numbers ? Sometime ago that may have been true when jvms were mostly interpreted but most modern jvm can dynamically convert java byte code to machine code which narrows the gap between C compiled code and jave byte codes.

I wasn't the one to go off on a tangent with a strawman argument about Java VS C. I'm talking about BD-J vs iHD as used for movie discs.
 
> "Cause that's exactly what it's going to turn into if you force all these CE companies to develop and implement such massively complex systems."

And yet you have an entire PC industry producing motherboards that all can run Windows. So if they can do it, they certainly can do it for something less complex like Java on CE devices, especially when you got an watch dog like the Blu-ray Association.

The cell phone industry is every man for himself, and they don't care about compatibility. You not going to have that with Blu-ray players. Companies have to meet the spec, or it simply will not get released with the Blu-ray logo.
 
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Edge said:
> "Cause that's exactly what it's going to turn into if you force all these CE companies to develop and implement such massively complex systems."

And yet you have an entire PC industry producing motherboards that all can run Windows. So if they can do it, they certainly can do it for something less complex like Java on CE devices, especially when you got an watch dog like the Blu-ray Association.

The cell phone industry is every man for himself, and they don't care about compatibilty. You not going to have that with Blu-ray players.

The question isn't whether or not you CAN do it. The point is if you have a simpler solution that gets the job done then why go with the complex solution that doesn't give you any benefit 99% of the time.
 
We're talking 20x more complexity, for discs which 99.9% of the time are going to show menus. MENUS!

Then we do not even need iHD, do we ?

I am sorry, but I like the idea behind BDJ, they want to change the idea of "oh we just show menus" like you say and once you do that you might want to have somethign flexible and powerful to help you do the job properly and that is also a bit future proof.
 
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Exactly. For playback menus, not even iHD is needed. Only HDMV is needed.

When you buy a movie to watch, are you really interested is fucking around with the equivalent of HTML sites on the disc, or are you interested in watching the movie?

How many people even bother with bonus features?

PC-Engines whole argument is really nonsense. BD-J is intended to do more than movie playback menus. Movie playback menus need not be complicated. People just want to watch the damn movie.

I myself hate overly animated and dramatic menus on DVDs which just length the friggin time it takes me to go from disc boot to PLAY MOVIE.


BTW, I just checked. The entire MHP platform, on which BD-J is based, is 205 methods. BD-J extends GEM, which subsets MHP. BD-J adds a few classes and a few dozen methods, so the entire BD-J API is approximately the same, or less than MHP.

MS's "10,000 method" FUD contains methods such as String.equals() and other core Java methods, which are not reimplemented by anyone. On the other hand, MS's reference implementation of iHD uses CE, .NET Compact Framework, and JScript and I'm willing to best that if you count the methods in .NET CF they come out to alot more than Java CDC/PBP.
 
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