Have we forgiven Nvidia?

Did you forgive Nvidia's sins already?

  • kind of

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • no

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I was never pissed

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    338
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Diplo said:
Entropy said:
This statement is simply wrong, and indicative of an attitude that are common with youth once they wake up to the fact that the world is a harsher place than their classroom experiences, but still haven't a postion of responsibility of their own, nor taken out directions in their lifes or have had cause to consider how they want to live and what they want to stand for in this world. Hence "sophomoric".
You seem to be baring some kind of grudge with society about something that bares little relevance to the discussion at hand. I don't really take kindly to the patronising tone that I'm somehow immature because I don't believe in a world of absolute black and white.

There seems to be a very serious lack of mutual understanding.
Of course there are degrees.
As consumers, our ability to influence the industry in the direction we desire lies mainly in our purchasing decisions, and in our ability to influence the purchasing decisions of others.

As consumers, it is therefore important that we actually use this. If I feel that nVidias policies are just too much, I don't buy their products. If I feel that animals should have reasonable living conditions before slaughter, I preferentially buy meat produced like that. Et cetera. If we don't use this tool of ours, we essentially just bend over and ask to be screwed again, when we could actually have affected our situation and to some degree, the society we live in.

Look, an online shop that bait-and-switches, overcharges for shipping and handling, ships similar but cheaper stuff assuming that the customer either won't notice or will accept their fate rather than go through additional hassle - do they deserve your money, or do you take your business elsewhere? If you believe in the capitalistic system, you believe in weeding out those businesses that do not serve your intererest as a consumer, in favour of those who do.

[rant]Yes, I probably sound condescending. There are attitudes I don't much respect. If they are plastered onto the world, and therefore me and people I know, I might eventually object. I'm a computational chemist, but I could still make some very saleable substances and peddle them. I don't though. I could make efforts to avoid paying taxes. I don't. I could pirate all my software. I don't. I could steal pretty substantial amounts from a non-profit organization where I'm trusted without ever getting caught. I don't. I could have bedded a number of women without my wife probably finding out. I didn't. And so on. That doesn't mean that I tilt at every windmill I see, or that I haven't done my share of ugliness. But still - I try to stand for what I think is right.

More fool me? Limiting my options? Perhaps. But those are decisions I make, that define who I am, and what I stand for during my time in the world. It's a good idea to think about that a little, if you want to be able to look yourself in the mirror and feel good about who you see there when you get old.

Of course, I could have chosen otherwise, and then when I look in the mirror say -"everyone else probably does just like me". But it would be a lie, a pathetic attempt to save some self-respect by trying to paint everyone else with the same brush I had used to paint myself.

And since I feel this way, and happen to know some people in some very high places, government and corporations, who really do work hard trying to generally do as best they can, I get pretty irritated with this "everyone's a cheater anyway" attitude that gets thrown around as if it was true, and as if this ridiculously simplistic worldview somehow indicated sophistication and maturity.[/rant]
 
Entropy said:
If I feel that animals should have reasonable living conditions before slaughter, I preferentially buy meat produced like that. Et cetera. If we don't use this tool of ours, we essentially just bend over and ask to be screwed again, when we could actually have affected our situation and to some degree, the society we live in.
Out of interest, how many other companies apart from Nvidia do you boycott and wish never existed?

You see, I'm a vegetarian for the very reason I don't want animals to die for my food. I pay over the odds for fair trade tea and donate a percentage of my wage to Amnesty International. I perfectly understand boycotting unethical companies, but what I will not do is debase those causes by pretending that a video card driver cheat is in the same ballpark. You said it yourself - "video cards are not life support machines". If Nvidia had been trying to cover up the fact that their cards exploded and maimed people you might have a point. The GeForce 5800 was hardly a Ford Pinto, was it? Have a quick look what companies like Esso do in third world countries. I think a little perspective is needed.

As far as I'm concerned there's no difference between the practices of Nvidia or ATI. Gosh, I can feel peoples' indignation and hatred already (I'm sure a whole load of "Erk's" are lining up already to crucify me for heresy). If you want to believe that Nvidia is run by evil people were as ATI are a wholesome collective who donate all their profits to charity, then fine, that's your choice. If you want to march up and down outside Nvidia HQ declaring that Jen-Hsun Huang is the devil, then I won't stop you. If you feel the need to pledge your undying loyalty to a multinational corporation, go ahead. Sorry if I don't get that worked up about it.

Me? I'll just buy whichever video card happens to offer the best bang for buck at any given time. If that makes me immoral in your eyes then, well, I guess I'll have to put up with that ignominy. However, I'd be interested to know the psychology behind why some people feel the need to vicariously find pleasure through aligning themselves in a tribal fashion to the companies they buy products off. Someone should write a paper on this... However, if you want to pretend that your reasoning is based on ethics, that's fine too. Whatever makes you feel happy about yourself.
 
Diplo said:
However, I'd be interested to know the psychology behind why some people feel the need to vicariously find pleasure through aligning themselves in a tribal fashion to the companies they buy products off. Someone should write a paper on this...

That's what I'm interested, too.. :D
 
Diplo said:
If you want to believe that Nvidia is run by evil people were as ATI are a wholesome collective who donate all their profits to charity, then fine, that's your choice. If you want to march up and down outside Nvidia HQ declaring that Jen-Hsun Huang is the devil, then I won't stop you. If you feel the need to pledge your undying loyalty to a multinational corporation, go ahead. Sorry if I don't get that worked up about it.

Me? I'll just buy whichever video card happens to offer the best bang for buck at any given time. If that makes me immoral in your eyes then, well, I guess I'll have to put up with that ignominy. However, I'd be interested to know the psychology behind why some people feel the need to vicariously find pleasure through aligning themselves in a tribal fashion to the companies they buy products off. Someone should write a paper on this... However, if you want to pretend that your reasoning is based on ethics, that's fine too. Whatever makes you feel happy about yourself.

You should get a medal for that post :LOL:
 
<rant on>

Ya a medal of BS :LOL:

For everyone that says their not a fanboi I could walk through their and/or parents home and find all kind of brand loyalty. I race cars and grew up racing Mustangs on Road Courses, I like Saleen/Roush powered cars, that makes me a Mustang fanboi, and lovin it.
It amazes me people post that they buy whatever is best, as 99% of them are liars, there is nothing wrong with being a fan of company, the problem is where ethics and realism meet.
Personally as a consumer I don't like to be lied too by misleading PR, bully tatics etc..
When you buy a companies product that is bloated to the hilt with marketing PR crapola, hacks and cheats what exactly are you supporting ?? Who is the victim here , the same fool on forums defending their lame ass purchase.
Would you go to a football game that allowed a specific team 10 points automatically for showing up every game. Would you buy a car that advertised 0-60 in 4 seconds but doesn't come close.
No company is 100% clean, but there is some that operate within acceptable rip off levels, Nvidia is not one of them. i.e free FSAA, video processor, the attempted discredit of Futuremark( did ATI do this when they were second best on the ORB), PVR PR...the list goes on and on and on.
<rant off>
 
Wow it seems that the graphics bizz has really touched the souls of some people here. I wish I could feel your pain :rolleyes: :LOL:
 
Personally as a consumer I don't like to be lied too by misleading PR, bully tatics etc..
But I'm sure you're not the average consumer who believes every PR ever released.

The fact of the matter is the majority of video card buyers do buy the best that they can afford. Those that don't and persistently stick to one IHV's offerings are what we term as fans. There is still nothing wrong with that, however. The only thing that can be wrong is if a recognized IHV fan refuses to admit (publicly, in forums) that a rival IHV has come out with a product better than the best that their favorite IHV has to offer at the same time. Worse still, such a fan continues to voice their doubt (publicly, in forums) about the rival IHV for their past misdeeds, when all that matters is that rival IHV's available hardware and how it performs. And worst of all, such a fan, via such public forum postings of theirs, is attempting to influence folks considering their next video card purchase to buy cards from his favourite IHV, no matter that that particular IHV's best current offering is not the best per se, frequently reminding folks of "his" rival IHV's past misdeeds.

Read reviews, buy the best that you can afford based on criterias important to you. Do not listen to recognizably unchangeable fans of a certain IHV. Is that what you're saying, DT?
 
Reverend said:
Read reviews

Reviews done by a select few, and even that can reviewers be fanbois ?? I will answer that..yes they can. Some of the most popular sites today are run by fanbois, either fanboi of a company due to 'fringe benefits' i.e $$$ or fanboi because they are a fanboi i.e Lars of Tomshardware fame.


buy the best that you can afford based on criterias important to you. Do not listen to recognizably unchangeable fans of a certain IHV. Is that what you're saying, DT?

Yes, although think of what you are supporting with your money, a good example is even after the massive cheat scandals all over the internet last year, and reviews galore exposing them, the market is still flooded with Nv30 based garbage.
 
Doomtrooper said:
Reverend said:
Read reviews

Reviews done by a select few, and even that can reviewers be fanbois ??
Well, as far as B3D is concerned, we're not concerned with/targetting folks that believe everything they read.

Given that you have such a careful stance, I wonder how much B3D can improve if you would write reviews for us.
 
Diplo said:
As far as I'm concerned there's no difference between the practices of Nvidia or ATI. Gosh, I can feel peoples' indignation and hatred already (I'm sure a whole load of "Erk's" are lining up already to crucify me for heresy). If you want to believe that Nvidia is run by evil people were as ATI are a wholesome collective who donate all their profits to charity, then fine, that's your choice. If you want to march up and down outside Nvidia HQ declaring that Jen-Hsun Huang is the devil, then I won't stop you. If you feel the need to pledge your undying loyalty to a multinational corporation, go ahead. Sorry if I don't get that worked up about it.
You still desperately try to make it out as if critizising nVidia policies equals ATI worship.

I don't think this will take us any further.
If you want to keep the exchange going, I think we should take it to pm.
 
Look, I don't want this to turn into one of those nasty arguments, so let me just try and explain my feelings on this more succinctly:

I perfectly understand that people who felt cheated by Nvidia regarding the FX series would be wary of buying their products again. That is only natural. I think this serves as a good lesson to all of us - don't ever buy a product based solely on the perceived reputation of the manufacturer (even if all their other products have been great) and don't rely on early reviews by sites that aren't rigorous in their review process. Really you can apply this to all products, not simply video cards.

If an IHV releases a video card that isn't up to scratch and tries to mislead the public then don't buy that particular card. That is the best way of sending a message to them that the public won't tolerate their practises. However, to say that you'll never buy another product by them again and that you wish they would go bust is a little extreme, I think. There are still people alive today who won't buy Japanese or German cars simply because of what happened in WWII. Worse still, some of these people actively try and persuade others that they should share their indignation, despite the fact that excellent cars are now manufactured in these countries.

Continually running down a current product based on your experience of a previous product is simply not logical, no matter how much you try and convince yourself that it is based on a sense of ethics. Convincing others' to share your feelings, however, isn't ethical its simply misleading and ultimately self-defeating. Trying to convince yourself and others that product Y must be rubbish because product X before it was isn't productive (no matter how much you convince yourself you are helping). If you want standards in the industry to improve then simply buy the product that suits you best at the time. Using your buying power this way not only gets you the best value for yourself but also 'rewards' the manufacturer who innovates and serves the public best at any given time. This in turn encourages competition and innovation and also keeps prices competitive.

On the other hand, buying a product that is inferior simply because you are loyal to one company and 'hate' the other company for something it did in it's past achieves nothing but negative results in the long run. If manufacturers' know people will buy their cards, through a sense of brand loyalty, regardless of how they perform then what possible ethical benefit is that? Once we get to the stage were people will buy something simply because of loyalty then we, as consumers, have lost. Likewise, if we avoid buying good products because of something that happened in the past we are not helping to further standards but set them back.
 
Richteralan said:
Diplo said:
However, I'd be interested to know the psychology behind why some people feel the need to vicariously find pleasure through aligning themselves in a tribal fashion to the companies they buy products off. Someone should write a paper on this...

That's what I'm interested, too.. :D

Very simple answer: product and services preference.
 
WaltC said:
Richteralan said:
Diplo said:
However, I'd be interested to know the psychology behind why some people feel the need to vicariously find pleasure through aligning themselves in a tribal fashion to the companies they buy products off. Someone should write a paper on this...

That's what I'm interested, too.. :D

Very simple answer: product and services preference.

I'm interested in the underlying motif for these preferences. I know all of us have some degrees of preferences in different products and services. But WHY and why it extended/led to fanboism?
 
Richteralan said:
I'm interested in the underlying motif for these preferences. I know all of us have some degrees of preferences in different products and services. But WHY and why it extended/led to fanboism?

It's the tribal thing, like we see in sports. You have two groups competing, trying to one-up and beat each other, and for whatever reason (ususally to justify a purchase, or the opinion that led to that purchase), people line up to support their "side" and rubbish the other side.

It probably goes back to our monkey roots when family groups fought each other for the best trees to sit in and eat fruit. If you look at today's chimpanzees, they too fling shit at the other side.
 
Richteralan said:
I'm interested in the underlying motif for these preferences. I know all of us have some degrees of preferences in different products and services. But WHY and why it extended/led to fanboism?

I'm not sure that it has--I think that people's simple preferences are often improperly described as "fanboyism." To me, the word "fanboi" is a non sequitur, and the term is often used as a self-serving device by those who have no arguments in an opposing side of a debate (if you can't lick 'em, call 'em "fanboys," etc.) Considering the stark differences that are often apparent between competing products and services, I've always found it somewhat bizarre as preferences among products are often easy to explain--thus I think "fanboi" is a label of last resort for those who can think of no factual points to strengthen their side of the debate. It's a catch-all for mediocrity not on the part of those accused of it usually, but most often on the part of those who make the "fanboi" slur themselves.
 
trinibwoy said:
Wow it seems that the graphics bizz has really touched the souls of some people here. I wish I could feel your pain :rolleyes: :LOL:
Everyone has their hobby, some of us happen to be passionate about those things we tend to embrace.

To each their own, personally I couldn't do what I do if I wasn't enthusiastic and passionate about it.
 
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