Has consumer pressure ruined gaming for the next decade? *spawn

What makes you think the cloud is actually so infinite? There is still a cost, no one gamer will ever get that infinite power the cloud because there is not infinitely big cloud server farm, and no infinitely cheap cloud service usage to purchase.

There is a reason why the only current cloud usage is basically replacing dedicated servers and storage, and that's a usage that's been going on for a long time on cloud servers that affiliated with MS.

There is a reality that no developer really wants to be beholden to the constant costs in using online servers. Unless, such games have to find a way to monetize their gameplay beyond just releasing the game.
 
It isn't about what the cloud can do that a local machine can't do. It's about the limitation of resources that a game programed to only run on a local machine has to deal with.

You have a finite amount of resources with which to do everything in a game. Hence why you see things like advanced sound algorithms get virtually no resources dedicated to it. Hence why non-combat AI and even to an extent combat AI gets so few resources dedicated to it.

Potentially with the cloud you now have X amount of extra resources that are completely and totally unavailable on a local machine. Sure the local machine could still do those things, but only at the expense of reducing the resources used for other things. Perhaps it's only 10% more computational power. 20%. 30%. Whatever it is, it is still more than what you have with the local machine alone.

That goes way above and beyond what exists with most online enabled games currently. It represents a potential paradigm shift in how you code a game and what things you can now enable that you couldn't before due to being limited to the resources available on the local machine.

The local machine is always going to be the best at rendering graphics and immediate latency sensitive physics. So the more stuff you can move off the machine means more resources you can dedicated locally to those things. If you move X% of latency insensitive calculations online, that's potentially X% more local resources that could be used for better physics for example.

There's also the potential to draw in realtime relevant data in game from the cloud or online resources or whatever you want to call them that an always online connection would allow. Things like having your game reflect the real world time, day, weather, traffic, etc. conditions. Or having a living constantly changing and updating world.

Regards,
SB

exactly. well said

this is the theory that most people should try to wrap their brains around ;)
 
What makes you think the cloud is actually so infinite? There is still a cost, no one gamer will ever get that infinite power the cloud because there is not infinitely big cloud server farm, and no infinitely cheap cloud service usage to purchase.

There is a reason why the only current cloud usage is basically replacing dedicated servers and storage, and that's a usage that's been going on for a long time on cloud servers that affiliated with MS.

There is a reality that no developer really wants to be beholden to the constant costs in using online servers. Unless, such games have to find a way to monetize their gameplay beyond just releasing the game.

The xbox one and ps4 are fixed in a single point in time. They will never be more than what they are now. Look at the xbox 360. Sure the design changed but its still the same cpu and gpu and ram for the last 8 years. But look at how computing has changed in 8 years. We went from single core/dual core pcs and server chips being the norm to quad cores being the norm with 6 and 8 core cpus poping up.

over the next 8 years we will see more drastic changes. Quad and hex cores will move to oct and more and ram will go from a couple to a dozen gigs to dozens and maybe hundreds of gigs of ram.

The could that the xbox one can acess will continue to change over time and get more and more powerful. So now over and over again games can get acess to more and more resources. It might start out as 3 times more power but by the end of the generation we could be looking at 10 or 20 or 30 times the power maybe even more than whats in the box.

MS will leverage idle time on the servers. Think about it in the united states azure will sit quite from 6pm to 8am on most days and ms will be able to devote it cheaply to the xbox line.
 
exactly. well said

this is the theory that most people should try to wrap their brains around ;)

The challenge for MS will be to quickly find a way to differentiate their offering from Sony with their cloud infrastructure.

If the experience is similar, people are right to question the value proposition. However, if there are notable gains in the experience by leveraging the cloud infrastructure, then you can easily generate a lot of word of mouth buzz and really see sales take off.

The quicker they can readily demonstrate their advantage, the better. We'll see.
 
It isn't about what the cloud can do that a local machine can't do. It's about the limitation of resources that a game programed to only run on a local machine has to deal with...
Okay, shifting processing to the cloud to free up local resources, what new gameplay can be achieved? What game type would be impossible next-gen without the cloud, as opposed to just simplified somewhat?
 
The xbox one and ps4 are fixed in a single point in time. They will never be more than what they are now. Look at the xbox 360. Sure the design changed but its still the same cpu and gpu and ram for the last 8 years. But look at how computing has changed in 8 years. We went from single core/dual core pcs and server chips being the norm to quad cores being the norm with 6 and 8 core cpus poping up.

over the next 8 years we will see more drastic changes. Quad and hex cores will move to oct and more and ram will go from a couple to a dozen gigs to dozens and maybe hundreds of gigs of ram.

The could that the xbox one can acess will continue to change over time and get more and more powerful. So now over and over again games can get acess to more and more resources. It might start out as 3 times more power but by the end of the generation we could be looking at 10 or 20 or 30 times the power maybe even more than whats in the box.

MS will leverage idle time on the servers. Think about it in the united states azure will sit quite from 6pm to 8am on most days and ms will be able to devote it cheaply to the xbox line.

I disagree. Super high end hardware has been driven by gaming primarily. But now, gaming is driven by the console specs. Console specs have a stabilizing effect on PC hardware, reducing costs and allowing older systems to last longer once the initial jump in specs is handled. As others have said, the are plenty of things the cloud is not usable for, no matter what the hype machine says. You can't beat what's in the box.

You do realize that cloud functionality is not inherent to XB1? Right? It's just a cheaper service to go though, not a magical all access. Don't give into the hype. Games that make use of cloud will do so regardless of what platform.

Listen to yourselves here. Having your head up in the cloud can be just as blinding as "a head in the sand."

No game, or service, available now or announced for the future has actually leveraged the cloud in any way beyond techniques already in common use via dedicated servers, and there's a reason for that.

The burden of proof, extraordinary evidence, is not on the people who are skeptical, but on you.

No to only that, the title of this thread is just ridiculous. MS was the one that ruined this magical online utopia for you guys, not fellow consumers. Poor messaging, poor understanding of their own capabilities, features that were conveniently unannounced popping up as damage control. Did you really want a company that couldn't get its act together to be in charge of that magical future?

Time to get over it guys. The magical cloud future will come eventually, but it will be a more natural evolution. Already more developers are using online functionality in more interesting ways, that change is happening right before your eyes. The thing is, it's already here, the multi-platform games that used online functionality and weren't using MS's azure platform were, you guessed it, likely using cloud based server time leased from the myriad of other services available.

Just because "cloud" is not forced on us as part of a larger DRM scheme by an inept company doesn't mean it hasn't already happened.
 
...and better textures and models and more variety.

:???: No more obvious that FMV and better sounds/voice acting

I of course shouldn't have added better sounds in the first place. But the only new "things" enabled by CD/DVD/Blu-ray was basically FMV and voice acting, everything else was just more storage.
 
... reducing costs and allowing older systems to last longer once the initial jump in specs is handled. As others have said, the are plenty of things the cloud is not usable for, no matter what the hype machine says. You can't beat what's in the box.

We haven't even started to discuss what devs are going to do with what's in the box. Right now, beyond what the cloud is already used for there isn't much of a big splash going on. TitanFall ( out next spring ) will be doing a combination of dedicated servers and MP bots in a cool looking title and besides "drivatars" is all that comes to mind right now in the Xbox Cloud Space.

Right now EA is going to be changing their engine to take advantage of HSA inside of both consoles. That is a real thing being done by a major player in the gaming space. Arguably more newsworthy than speculations on the cloud. It is also something that is going to distinguish consoles from PCs for some time.

You do realize that cloud functionality is not inherent to XB1?

If anything Sony is actually further ahead when it comes to the Cloud when it comes to something that has already taken place. Any further cloud gains could find themselves pulled into the Gaikai service. Google is ahead of everybody on the compute infrastructure side of things if you wanna talk CLOUD. Maybe we will be seeing all this cloudiness as a back end for browsers running asm.js or some other engine with that potential ubiquity.
 
I of course shouldn't have added better sounds in the first place. But the only new "things" enabled by CD/DVD/Blu-ray was basically FMV and voice acting, everything else was just more storage.

That's like saying all the new consoles offer is more computational power. CD's offering vastly more storage over the cartridges that preceded it is what led to countless new game designs once coders figured out what to do with all that space. It sure didn't happen on day one as everyone seems to be demanding of cloud, but it did eventually happen. Gpu's offering vastly more rendering power over the software renderers that preceded it is what led to big gains in rendering quality. Cloud offers (among other things) extended/expandable computational power at a pace that far exceeds what a console generation can ever provide, and can even be expanded mid generation without impact to anyone. I guess I'm the only person around that sees this as a massive advancement for consoles.


If anything Sony is actually further ahead when it comes to the Cloud when it comes to something that has already taken place. Any further cloud gains could find themselves pulled into the Gaikai service. Google is ahead of everybody on the compute infrastructure side of things if you wanna talk CLOUD.

You don't really believe that do you? If you can't see why what Microsoft has put together is far ahead of what others are offering with regards to games, then it perhaps does explain why people don't see what they are potentially missing.


No game, or service, available now or announced for the future has actually leveraged the cloud in any way beyond techniques already in common use via dedicated servers, and there's a reason for that.

Yeah because it's non standard, expensive to implement, little support, etc, it's a colossal pain in the ass. Look at a comparatively simple thing like multiplayer matchmaking and lobbies. Now look at how the 360 and ps3 handled that. 360 had Microsoft's backing, standardization and support for that and it was universal on the platform. Ps3 didn't have anything, it was the wild west. Could coders have coded their own solutions and leveraged existing online to roll their own on ps3? Sure. Did they? By and large no because of what a nightmare that part of it was back in 2005. It led to the ps3 having a horrific online experience for years compared to the competition which had with standard/supported/mandatory support out of the box.


Time to get over it guys. The magical cloud future will come eventually, but it will be a more natural evolution.

That's exactly what royally sucks, it didn't have to all get delayed and arrive at a "natural evolution". The pieces are all in place for it to happen sooner rather than later. The onus would have been shifted to the developers to make use of this standard/universal resource to conjure up something new. Instead now it's optional and every dev can shift back to a waiting pattern, waiting for it to become standard once again.


Just because "cloud" is not forced on us as part of a larger DRM scheme by an inept company doesn't mean it hasn't already happened.

It hasn't happened for games in the way Microsoft has set it up to be so. There is no other cloud setup out there that offers what they are offering with the support they are offering at the cost they are offering with the standardization they are offering and tailored to games as they are offering. Jeeze next thing you know people are going to start using bookmark synching as proof that the cloud has already happened and the Microsoft is offering nothing new here.


The cloud is still there for use. So?

Optionally. Historically how good has "optionally" faired in the console space?


Okay, shifting processing to the cloud to free up local resources, what new gameplay can be achieved? What game type would be impossible next-gen without the cloud, as opposed to just simplified somewhat?

We're officially going in circles :) To repeat what's been previously said, the short answer is no one knows. When the internet was put out there all I could do on it was YTalk with others. I mean heck I could just use the phone for that, I guess that means the Internet was useless and should have just been cancelled, it couldn't possibly have led to anything new based on those early days.


The challenge for MS will be to quickly find a way to differentiate their offering from Sony with their cloud infrastructure.

They have to do it on their own now though given that it's optional, although I guess they could start throwing money around paying others to support it.
 
I disagree. Super high end hardware has been driven by gaming primarily. But now, gaming is driven by the console specs. Console specs have a stabilizing effect on PC hardware, reducing costs and allowing older systems to last longer once the initial jump in specs is handled. As others have said, the are plenty of things the cloud is not usable for, no matter what the hype machine says. You can't beat what's in the box.

You do realize that cloud functionality is not inherent to XB1? Right? It's just a cheaper service to go though, not a magical all access. Don't give into the hype. Games that make use of cloud will do so regardless of what platform.

Listen to yourselves here. Having your head up in the cloud can be just as blinding as "a head in the sand."

No game, or service, available now or announced for the future has actually leveraged the cloud in any way beyond techniques already in common use via dedicated servers, and there's a reason for that.

The burden of proof, extraordinary evidence, is not on the people who are skeptical, but on you.

No to only that, the title of this thread is just ridiculous. MS was the one that ruined this magical online utopia for you guys, not fellow consumers. Poor messaging, poor understanding of their own capabilities, features that were conveniently unannounced popping up as damage control. Did you really want a company that couldn't get its act together to be in charge of that magical future?

Time to get over it guys. The magical cloud future will come eventually, but it will be a more natural evolution. Already more developers are using online functionality in more interesting ways, that change is happening right before your eyes. The thing is, it's already here, the multi-platform games that used online functionality and weren't using MS's azure platform were, you guessed it, likely using cloud based server time leased from the myriad of other services available.

Just because "cloud" is not forced on us as part of a larger DRM scheme by an inept company doesn't mean it hasn't already happened.

Noone has said that it is only available to Xbox One. But out of the two console manufacturer's being discussed here one has significantly more invested into the cloud in infrastructure, research, and technology.

Nothing prevents Microsoft from allowing developers to use Azure for the competing platform. Nothing prevents them from offering a discount if the title is exclusive. Nothing prevents Sony from investing as heavily in cloud infrastructure if they can afford it.

The point we're all making is that because it isn't STANDARD on at least one of the console, the potential benefits (both ones already theorized, ones being implemented now in launch titles, and ones we haven't thought of) will be greatly delayed. Potentially by a full console generation (5-8 years). When we could have started it now by guaranteeing publishers that at least one of the consoles would feature 100% of its users having at least 1.5 Mbps connectivity 99% of the time.

Cloud benefits that could have benefitted both Xbox One and PS4 users. BOTH. Although quite obviously exclusives to Xbox One would get there first as they'd be guaranteed that 100% of their target market would have the minimum required online connectivity. Not so for PS4 users, hence not all PS4 users would have the benefits.

Hell, we'll be getting a very small dose of that in The Division and Destiny. But neither of those is doing anything new with it since they aren't likely to take the risk with not being guaranteed that all of their target market will have a robust enough connection (1.5 Mbps) since an MMO type of thing requires far less. You can do MMO type stuff with a 56k analog phone modem. Hence they are sticking with generally your bog standard MMO type stuff that we've had for 15+ years now. /yawn, even though I love MMOs.

And now, they can't even be guaranteed that at least one of the platforms will feature 100% of users having a robust enough connection (1.5 Mbps) for at least reasonable online compute which will require far more bandwidth than any MMO in existence.

Hence, real progress and innovation with regards to cloud compute for games will quite likely be delayed by 5-8 years as we wait for the next generation of consoles after this.

A bloody fucking huge shame, IMO.

Regards,
SB
 
You don't really believe that do you? If you can't see why what Microsoft has put together is far ahead of what others are offering with regards to games, then it perhaps does explain why people don't see what they are potentially missing.

What you don't believe that Google has a better compute infrastructure ? ;) Sony bought Gaikai a company that ALREADY used the cloud for a gaming infrastructure. What more is to come from it besides PS3 BC is speculation but that is the same as MS. You could slowly offload stuff to the cloud or slowly onload stuff from the cloud.

THE MS CLOUD already exists and has nothing to do with the Xbox per se. It's smart to leverage their existing Azure infrastructure but if tomorrow MS decides "screw it" Azure still exists. Now of course the whole point is to get MS network services into the home and from that whether or not that involves the Xbox is besides the point when you think about it. If they came up with a new version of MSN TV and it turned out to be more profitable they would do that instead.

There is a lot of expectations from the faithful here and that is all well and good but you could also say that, in terms of something new, HSA is right now more of a bigger deal if EA is any measure. Cloud Computing is a service already and MS is using a mixture of PR and some new licensing agreements with publishers to provide compute services, that is all we really know. I feel certain that any server farms they say they are building for xbox live can relatively easily be repurposed. It's not like they are ACTUALLY building a bunch of XB1s and 360s, it's just a big compute fabric.

If we are going to speculate why not also speculate about someone like Google deciding to invest heavily in getting a box with some exclusive gaming IP, they could out do MS in a year's time from a cloudy point of view, in theory at least. Theory is much of what is being bandied about here anyways.
 
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We're officially going in circles :) To repeat what's been previously said, the short answer is no one knows. When the internet was put out there all I could do on it was YTalk with others. I mean heck I could just use the phone for that, I guess that means the Internet was useless and should have just been cancelled, it couldn't possibly have led to anything new based on those early days.
Unless you consider it impossible to evaluate anything prior to building and trying it, the fact the cloud isn't being used in a console now isn't a barrier to understanding potential, at least some. Smart phones were easily predictable, for example, and though some aspects like everyone using them constantly while out for a meal may not have been expected, possibilities for their users like taking and sharing photos and using little functional applications and playing games were obvious long before smart-phones existed as we know them now.

Look at discussion on this board around what could be done with new tech like Wii and sixaxis and Kinect, and how without any experience whatsoever, people can come up with ideas how to use them (most of which the games companies failed to implement).

If you can't look at the cloud's remote compute and storage and envision how they could make for new games, how's about approaching it from another direction. Pick a game style that isn't represented in the current crop of publisher output and see how it cannot be done on the new consoles (or old consoles for that matter) and then how the cloud could maybe enable it. Looking at the masses of game styles across the ages, the golden days of Amiga variety, and the current indie scene explosion, there's not really a dearth of game styles possible - it's just that the major players don't want to make them. In which case, what makes you think they'll want to embrace new cloud-enabled gameplay when they weren't willing to embrace old, cloudless gameplay. The limiting factor is the devs, the publishers, and possibly the market too (Journey only recently broke profitability). I find it reassuring that Cerny is with me on this and he expects more variety thanks to lower cost of entry
 
Unless you consider it impossible to evaluate anything prior to building and trying it, the fact the cloud isn't being used in a console now isn't a barrier to understanding potential, at least some. Smart phones were easily predictable, for example, and though some aspects like everyone using them constantly while out for a meal may not have been expected, possibilities for their users like taking and sharing photos and using little functional applications and playing games were obvious long before smart-phones existed as we know them now.

I'd argue that smart phones were not easily predictable either in what they were capable of or would be capable of doing. Take Apple, what is the name of their software that serves as their app hub and do everything portal? It's called iTunes. That's right iTunes. Now I ask you, why would they call it iTunes when it deals with Apps and all sorts of other stuff? Think about it for a bit.


Look at discussion on this board around what could be done with new tech like Wii and sixaxis and Kinect, and how without any experience whatsoever, people can come up with ideas how to use them (most of which the games companies failed to implement).

Yeah let's talk about all of those. Wii included standard, universal and mandated motion controls. Now, in spite of whatever technical failings or limits it may have had, does anyone on this forum dispute how it single handedly accelerated acceptance of alternate control schemes, how it accelerated future r&d in that department, and how it increased the console gaming audience? If the Wii-mote was optional and the Wii was just another console that played yet more games, would the resultant acceleration in the field of alternate controls have been the same? I'd argue not a chance. Would Kinect 1.0 have come out at the time it did if not for the Wiimote being standard on the Wii? Or to cut to the chase, would we have seen the cool Kinect 2.0 stuff at this years e3 if it were not for the Wii having motion controls standard all those years ago rather than optional? In that particular field, being "standard" rather than "optional" accelerated progress dramatically.

EDIT: I realized I missed part of your question...it's far easier for people to think of ideas and uses for motion controllers like Kinect and Wiimote because of the whole you are the controller marketing campaign. So right away people think hey I'd like to actually be boxing in a boxing game, or pitch in that baseball game, run and jump in that fitness game, etc, it's easier to come up with initial ideas for those devices. Cloud is a different beast, it's not immediately apparent where it can best be used.


If you can't look at the cloud's remote compute and storage and envision how they could make for new games, how's about approaching it from another direction. Pick a game style that isn't represented in the current crop of publisher output and see how it cannot be done on the new consoles (or old consoles for that matter) and then how the cloud could maybe enable it. Looking at the masses of game styles across the ages, the golden days of Amiga variety, and the current indie scene explosion, there's not really a dearth of game styles possible - it's just that the major players don't want to make them. In which case, what makes you think they'll want to embrace new cloud-enabled gameplay when they weren't willing to embrace old, cloudless gameplay. The limiting factor is the devs, the publishers, and possibly the market too (Journey only recently broke profitability). I find it reassuring that Cerny is with me on this and he expects more variety thanks to lower cost of entry

The limiting factor is the devs because yes you have to lower the barrier to entry as much as possible. However that goes to all aspects of it though meaning the tools need to be there, the api needs to be there, the audience needs to be there, the financials need to be there, all of that needs to be guaranteed and in place if you want devs to make the leap. Or I really should say publishers and not devs, because devs love to play with new stuff, it's the publishers and bean counters that have to be satisfied. Having a feature be standard goes a supremely long way to lowering the barrier right there, but even that alone isn't enough. We can look at Nintendo, their online may be standard but to call it horrid would be an understatement so devs are still likely to ignore that "standard" element in the Nintendo world. The effort that Microsoft took to put all the pieces in place to me is unprecedented. They didn't just throw together an api and let devs sort out the servers and tools themselves. They didn't just supply servers and then ignore a standard platform wide api. They didn't just make cool tools and compiler hooks and then supply underpowered servers. They didn't supply good servers, good tools and good api and then make it all unaffordable. They didn't just supply good servers, tools api and pricing and then make it an optional neglected Sega 32x type peripheral. That's just the thing, they put all the pieces together, guaranteed tools, guaranteed api, guaranteed server power, guaranteed audience, affordable pricing, no one else to date as done that, not Apple, not Google, not Sony, no one. It's a first! That is how they in my mind are the first company to truly lower the barrier to entry to cloud with regards to game development. All other companies as far as I'm concerned don't get it because they don't understand games enough, they don't realize the technical difficulty and scope of creating games to begin with so they offer piecemeal cloud solutions which, to no ones surprise, have been largely ignored. Microsoft had all the pieces, with 'had" being the operative word as that little thing called the internet connection is no longer guaranteed.
 
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That's like saying all the new consoles offer is more computational power. CD's offering vastly more storage over the cartridges that preceded it is what led to countless new game designs once coders figured out what to do with all that space.

Could you please give some examples? I can't really think of anything....
 
Cloud is MMO for my single player game. And since I've played MMOs few years in real time in past 16 years, I don't need it. I'm glad that it at least somewhat failed to catch on.

I don't care how many mobs cloud/MMO can track at the same time. I don't care how many other players appear on my screen. I don't care about billions of items in auction house. For me everything like that just means more lag, rubberbanding, server sync issues, duping, glitches, dropping thru game world, warping thru walls, dropping from edges... Single player games are already buggy enough, I certainly don't need extra layer crap from server side.
 
Could you please give some examples? I can't really think of anything....

The ps1 having optical media standard was a game changer. Yes, it increased latency to data *dramatically* (sound familiar?) but the pros of the vast amount of storage it offered outweighed the cons, and along with that came games like Metal Gear Solid that got other developers thinking of new ways to build immersive games and ultimately leading to GTA5 which we see today. If the cd drive was optional on ps1, would Metal Gear Solid ps1have ever been created, and would immersive open world games be at the same state they are today?
 
I'd argue that smart phones were not easily predictable either in what they were capable of or would be capable of doing. Take Apple, what is the name of their software that serves as their app hub and do everything portal? It's called iTunes. That's right iTunes. Now I ask you, why would they call it iTunes when it deals with Apps and all sorts of other stuff? Think about it for a bit.
It was called iTunes (originally SoundJam) because when it was initially released, back in 2001, it dealt primarily with transferring music and playlists to an iPod. It supported music/playlist transfers, firmware upgrades and nothing else.

Over the years iTunes had added video, including limited support for transcoding video for limited native formats to iPod compatible formats, iPod games, to apps with the release of the iPhone in 2007. But even that - iTunes being the hub for media synchronisation - ended back in 2011 with iOS5. That is when the device was freed from being tethered to a particular host Mac/PC iTunes computer, and when you could update iOS independently and, more importantly, plug any iOS5 device into any Mac/PC running iTunes and copy content back and forth between either.

There is now just the App Store, iTMS (iTunes Music Store) and the iTunes client, which many people never even see or use.
 
so is this cloud thing only going to be available to live gold subscribers ?
I've come around to Joker454's position on this. If it was to be affordable, scalable cloud compute for all, with great support from MS. With maybe every user having a decent enough connection.


If those features are gold only, then it's a different story.
 
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