Personally I think it's more about how linear a game feels rather than how linear it actually is. HL1 and HL2 are really no more or less linear than the one another, but HL2 sets itself in what should huge open environments, intersecting city streets, beaches, etc. You are constantly running into both literal and figurative road blocks to keep you on your narrow single path. With HL1, when you're spending the bulk of your game experience in some underground research facility, the lack of freedom doesn't exactly pull you out of the experience.
Half-Life 3
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Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.
Legend
There's a difference between a game that has a linear story (often necessary if you have a narrative to play out) or environment, and a game that has linear gameplay.
The nice thing about games like Crysis or Far Cry is that although the story is linear (most stories are told in the form of beginning-middle-end
) the gameplay is what you make it. You can sneak, snipe, run & gun, play it how you like. Most other games have linear gameplay, where you do the same thing every time in the same way. With games like Far Cry the game play is not linear, even if the maps and story are.
The nice thing about games like Crysis or Far Cry is that although the story is linear (most stories are told in the form of beginning-middle-end
) the gameplay is what you make it. You can sneak, snipe, run & gun, play it how you like. Most other games have linear gameplay, where you do the same thing every time in the same way. With games like Far Cry the game play is not linear, even if the maps and story are.That's how I see it too.The nice thing about games like Crysis or Far Cry is that although the story is linear (most stories are told in the form of beginning-middle-end
Silent_Buddha
Legend
There's a difference between a game that has a linear story (often necessary if you have a narrative to play out) or environment, and a game that has linear gameplay.
The nice thing about games like Crysis or Far Cry is that although the story is linear (most stories are told in the form of beginning-middle-end
Which is what I've been saying. Those are all quite linear games that do an excellant job of giving the illusion of freedom and an open world...
The more successful "open world" games actually go to lengths to make it linear through difficulty. Fallout 1 and 2 for instance. Open World. You can go pretty much anywhere. But the difficulty level of certain areas kept you on a fairly linear path through the world and thus the story.
Fallout 3 completely and totally fails there because there is no escalating difficulty. As such like most open world games, I absolutely hated it.
Oddly enough the largest most open world game ever made (Elder Scrolls 1) I loved, because it was more like a fantasy roleplaying sandbox... Which is odd because I don't much like sandbox games either.
Regards,
SB
BTW - I LOVED the time limit in Fallout 1. Probably because it was so long you'd have to really suck to run out of time. But it gave a sense of needing to get stuff done, even if there was no chance I'd ever run out of time.
Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.
Legend
The thing is that open games are not really open. You still have to give players things to do. There aren't really any games that are simply an environment that you interact with. This would be boring, and so you have to set up triggers for missions. You may be able to do the missions in any order, and you have to go to different places on the map to play those missions, but they are parcelled up in the same way as if you'd had to play them in a particular order.
Most open games are basically a set of main story missions that are completed in a set order, and then a lot of side missions that have no bearing on the main story and can be played in any order simply as a levelling mechanism.
Even if you look at games like Need For Speed: Underground, in their open modes, you can drive around the world and nothing much happens, but the player is still prompted by NPCs to run the side missions, or if you start misbehaving, you trigger police-chase side missions. That's not really an open world, even if it pretends to be.
Pretty much every game has to generate things for the player to do, whether they are big open maps or not, because being left to do your own thing is usually meaningless in any real gameplay sense. The only thing that makes a difference is allowing the player to play the game using the style they want to use.
Most open games are basically a set of main story missions that are completed in a set order, and then a lot of side missions that have no bearing on the main story and can be played in any order simply as a levelling mechanism.
Even if you look at games like Need For Speed: Underground, in their open modes, you can drive around the world and nothing much happens, but the player is still prompted by NPCs to run the side missions, or if you start misbehaving, you trigger police-chase side missions. That's not really an open world, even if it pretends to be.
Pretty much every game has to generate things for the player to do, whether they are big open maps or not, because being left to do your own thing is usually meaningless in any real gameplay sense. The only thing that makes a difference is allowing the player to play the game using the style they want to use.
The distinct lack of ammo holding in HL2 made it extremely linear then. You could not save up to snipe for a bit if you wanted to, or otherwise change how you played.
Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.
Legend
I personally don't remember running out of ammo in HL2, but then I never just sprayed all my ammo, and was happy to switch to different guns for different environments. Maybe Valve decided to make ammo management part of the gameplay. Unless what you're saying is that every game is linear unless it gives you infinite ammo for every weapon.
No, you misread what I wrote.
How much ammo could you store for the magnum (12 rounds yay)? For the cross bow (10)?
That is the point. They made you play the entire game with the same guns b/c you could not store up a significant amount of ammo to play one level as a sniper. You just could not do it. It was lame of them. All a developer has to do is not lay ammo everywhere like they did in HL2 if they want you to manage it. That is just a super lazy developer. "I don't have any idea how much ammo is enough so lets throw it everywhere for the generic guns, but limit the player to carrying a tiny amount except in the generic boring guns so they can't store it and defeat our oh so carefully crafted user experience."
Every time you have to fight with the RPG there is a crate of RPG ammo, but no you can't carry it with you for fun later. At least that makes sense (except the crate sitting there) as the rockets are large. Why can't I carry magnum cartridges? And why the hell is a pistol a long distance weapon anyway? It is retarded. I mean you have a rifle you can't aim for crap with, but boy get a pistol and you can shoot people are 100 yards in the head every time. Probably the stupidest weapon stats ever. I wanted to carry 50 bolts for the crossbow and ditch the lame SMG entirely. That is the point. If they let you store significant ammo for the magnum or crossbow you could at least play a different way. And if the damage is too high make the reloading time longer so it is still a challenge for the player. Don't just limit it to 12 rounds or something. When a game gives you a pile of crossbow ammo to snipe on one level, and so forth it is boring. You can't really enjoy playing it different ways. And like I said it is stupid for the magnum. It should have been a shotgun alternative not a sniper rifle. Inaccurate, but powerful as hell.
How much ammo could you store for the magnum (12 rounds yay)? For the cross bow (10)?
That is the point. They made you play the entire game with the same guns b/c you could not store up a significant amount of ammo to play one level as a sniper. You just could not do it. It was lame of them. All a developer has to do is not lay ammo everywhere like they did in HL2 if they want you to manage it. That is just a super lazy developer. "I don't have any idea how much ammo is enough so lets throw it everywhere for the generic guns, but limit the player to carrying a tiny amount except in the generic boring guns so they can't store it and defeat our oh so carefully crafted user experience."
Every time you have to fight with the RPG there is a crate of RPG ammo, but no you can't carry it with you for fun later. At least that makes sense (except the crate sitting there) as the rockets are large. Why can't I carry magnum cartridges? And why the hell is a pistol a long distance weapon anyway? It is retarded. I mean you have a rifle you can't aim for crap with, but boy get a pistol and you can shoot people are 100 yards in the head every time. Probably the stupidest weapon stats ever. I wanted to carry 50 bolts for the crossbow and ditch the lame SMG entirely. That is the point. If they let you store significant ammo for the magnum or crossbow you could at least play a different way. And if the damage is too high make the reloading time longer so it is still a challenge for the player. Don't just limit it to 12 rounds or something. When a game gives you a pile of crossbow ammo to snipe on one level, and so forth it is boring. You can't really enjoy playing it different ways. And like I said it is stupid for the magnum. It should have been a shotgun alternative not a sniper rifle. Inaccurate, but powerful as hell.
Well I'm not sure I'd go quite that far. Lets use Rebel Assault as the ultimate definition of the "on rails straight forward linear shooter". You have effectively no control other than shooting your gun at the bad guys flying at you. You fly through what amounts to corridors, some of which are literally corridors and are loaded with fake door syndrome.
Shooter linearity is a sort of nebulous thing to define. You can really start to split hairs in some cases but I'm rather confident that it can be quantified.
My little on-the-spot-comes-to-my-mind scale would go something like this:
Yah watchout I called Beth's games shooters!! FarCry 2 harshly ignored.Code:[]----------------[]----------------[]--------------------------------[] Rebel Assault RtCW Crysis Oblivion Delta V Unreal FarCry Fallout 3 Half Life Chrome STALKER Doom Just Cause Blood Hexen AvP Dark Messiah Jedi Knight
I'd more-or-less put Just Cause in a "further to the right" category along with GTA simply because of it's insane sense of scale. Oblivion, Fallout 3, and STALKER are amalgamations of FPS + RPG, and the terms of scale can be somewhat described by the method of travel - walking no vehicles.............and horses in Oblivion are not vehicles in my book (in game design and in literal terms yes, but they are too slow for me to put next to the likes of cars, boats and aircraft)
. However, yes this category along with the GTA category can be grouped together into the "open world shooter category", but should we technically be grouping Just Cause and GTA series/style games with FPSs or are we talking shooters in general?
As for me, in games, I don't have a preference of level design and progression. I just ask that the game is excellently built in it's own terms.
Well I for one am glad that people can actually voice their honest opinion about what they like in games rather than getting shut down by some "fan-boi's" the moment they open their mouths.
I really think that even though as of late, the quality of the games, that is the attention to detail, to story, to breaking boundaries and having excellent gameplay, that all, has been going downhill ever since every other pc games are just console ports, we still have, at the end of the day, a very large collection of very accomplished games. Even earlier this year, I found myself immersed in GTA 4 for the PC. With some modification to population density, the game can truly "fool" one to believe they are in a real living breathing city. Of course, over time, the game starts to wear down once you understand that the NPCs are only capable of a limited amount of actions and everyone is driving and walking to nowhere, 90% of all the buildings are not accessible, but we have come very far to even get to that point. I cannot wait to see what they will do with GTA 5 if they dare to rise the standard.
I really think that even though as of late, the quality of the games, that is the attention to detail, to story, to breaking boundaries and having excellent gameplay, that all, has been going downhill ever since every other pc games are just console ports, we still have, at the end of the day, a very large collection of very accomplished games. Even earlier this year, I found myself immersed in GTA 4 for the PC. With some modification to population density, the game can truly "fool" one to believe they are in a real living breathing city. Of course, over time, the game starts to wear down once you understand that the NPCs are only capable of a limited amount of actions and everyone is driving and walking to nowhere, 90% of all the buildings are not accessible, but we have come very far to even get to that point. I cannot wait to see what they will do with GTA 5 if they dare to rise the standard.
Blazkowicz
Legend
I await Mafia 2 as the next such kind of game, with the same exact issue. Plus niceties such that the story may have you assassinate a NPC with a baseball bat for discretion, but it doesn't matter that you killed 15 cops on your way to pick up groceries.
that will change the day we have a lot of self-aware AIs in our games only to entertain us.
that will change the day we have a lot of self-aware AIs in our games only to entertain us
.Blazkowicz
Legend
that's why I prefer that game where you plant a C4 bomb to distroy a few wooden crates, or even stone crates from a ancient american civilisation.
Self aware AI seems to be something we will not get for a very long time. The funds needed to make such a thing possible would be too much. They'd rather make every NPC the same, just a spawn of the original, with various stages of changes, but they cannot "adapt" to your actions. It would have been interesting if cops didn't stop chasing you or look for you after you "get out of their zone" in GTA 4. Fun but highly unrealistic. But if they REALLY wanted to, they could. Multiple core cpus today are still underused so if they can really optimize one with crazy AI and changes its behavior throughout an entire game based on what you do, they can. But will your average 16 year old playing on a console really give a crap? Probably not. And thus there's no advantage to them putting in the effort.
Silent_Buddha
Legend
There's been a few games that keep track of what the player does as well as their reputation and that influences how NPCs react to them when they finally do meet. But they are few and far between. And haven't really seen one released in the past few years that I can remember that used it in any significant way.
Dragon age remembers past choices you made, but it doesn't really change anything other than the flavor of dialog...
Regards,
SB
Dragon age remembers past choices you made, but it doesn't really change anything other than the flavor of dialog...
Regards,
SB
It's highly dependable on what games you play. Straight forward FPSes like HL do not need crazy AI beyond able to attack you realistically as a team. With games like COJ, the focus is mainly on atmosphere and story telling. You don't need adaptive AI for that. But for larger games, even Crysis, better AI would make the game 10x more fun. But developers will choose whatever is easier. Make a simple game simple, and throw in more shiny Gfx to cover up the mess. How much can you tell from a 1 minute video or a screenshot? Almost nothing about the gameplay. Once the hype builds up, a kid buys the game, the money is made. Longevity is not important. AI is not important. Financially speaking that is.
spacemonkey
Newcomer
AI? Story? Bah! I want eye candy dammit!
...but seriously, has there been any news of new engine development?
...but seriously, has there been any news of new engine development?
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And I would expect it, it has been forever.
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