[H]ardOCP Trying to be too Hard?

[tahrikmili]

Let me just mention this once again, because someone pointed out the DFI Lanparty board.

A friend of mine has the DFI Lanparty Xpress 200 board and he can run it at 280MHz FSB and 300MHz RAM with Geil One memories at very low timings. This is just how good the board can overclock.

Kyle's opinions are just his opinions, they are in no way factual and very likely heavily biased.

Here's a review of the said DFI Lanparty board from Anandtech: http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=2572

It paints a TOTALLY different picture compared to Kyle's comments. So different that, actually, it makes him look like a clown.

In looking at the larger picture, ATI has to be extremely pleased that a high quality ATI RD480 motherboard is finally on the market. This DFI RDX200 is a superb board for the overclocker, whether they will use air, water, or phase-change cooling. This board, like the ATI Crossfire Reference board, was designed to be pushed to the limits. This means that the talk and speculation is over, and NVIDIA does have a worthy AMD chipset competitor in ATI. In fact, ATI is showing that it can cater to the AMD enthusiast with options and performance that will set the tone for future AMD chipsets.

I believe nothing further needs be said.

 

[YeuEmMaiMai]

The score stands because they had a $3,200 that they paid out of their own pockets for that didn't work correctly. Whether Bad video, bad mobo, or bad mojo I wasn't stable and at that price it should have been the most reliable machine in the world. They don't retract a score just because they thought one part was bad and it turned out to be another. Kyles side note was just that a side note that, he doubted that a mobo with that chipset should have been in there and stated afterward that even though this time it wasn't the mobos fault it was still a poor choice. They don't need to tell you it was a bad choice putting a BFG 7800GTX OC in the system becuase that wasn't a mistake, Both BFG and the 7800GTX are high end parts suppliers / highend performers.

I don't really know where your problems come from but here.

Comments about poor use of chipset stand. It would be the same if someone said why use a PD 840 instead of a X2 4800 no matter if the their was problems with that particular PD.

Poor Score due to system Stability stands. It wasn't stable why should they take back a machine that they bought (not sent to) that wasn't stable and has now been ironed out now that FNW knows its being used for reviewing. Now if cost wasn't an issue I am sure they could do a second review after another anonomous purchase, but fixing the review after based on a part that no-longer is covered under the cloak of animitiy is kind of useless. What good is buying it instead of having them send you a review part if your going to just have them take it and send it back to you later.

As for thinking it was the mothrboard at first, why would anyone see an issue with this if the problem seems mobo related and FNW says they think it is mobo related then what wrong with saying its mobo related. For HARDOCP since they weren't going to review it again anyways once it came back that was pretty much end of story. The fact that they put up the second part was nice of them since we found out they had a graphics problem instead, Kyle could have saved face by not putting it up but he didn't.

As for Opinions who are you guys to say you shouldn't include them. I believe that I shouldn't have to go back 3 years in reviews to figure out if this next part might have some type of issue. Kyle said he has horrible luck with the x200, I like that because I can scoure the Forums figuring out if their is an issue or not, but I can, (and this is the hard part for you guys since you won't understand), if I trust the reviewer and believe his views are close to mine, aviod that heartship and FUD (from ******s and Antis) and take his words at face value.

For me Kyle is my kind of guy and alot of times he hits the nail right in middle of the forehead, and for me he has gained my trust.

It wan't stable due to the bad video card not the chipset. During the troubleshooting process they tried various things to get the machine stable including playing with the memory timings. However it did not solve the problem since it was not the cause of the problem. what is so hard to understand about that?

 

[tahrikmili]

Actually if you look into some of the Reviews that were posted and actuall user success you find they differ by alot. It is pretty much been understood that for the longest time review sites have always gotten cherry picked parts. This is also why they Purchased the FNW fragbox instead of having it sent as a review package.

Wow, is that why they never buy the occasional nVidia part but always review cherry picked nVidia/BFG hardware? Now that would make sense, considering BFG parts always had excellent reviews on TardOCP and now that they try a retail part, the video card caused system instability! Incredible!

I'm sorry but if you're going to start dwelling on conspiracy theories, things will just get out of hand like this.

 

[SugarCoat]

It wan't stable due to the bad video card not the chipset. During the troubleshooting process they tried various things to get the machine stable including playing with the memory timings. However it did not solve the problem since it was not the cause of the problem. what is so hard to understand about that?

People dont seem to get it. The score was given based on the fact that they believed the motherboard to be at fault. A major problem in a computer since its easily reproducable most of the time since problems are either hardware related or problems in the BIOS. Obviously if the motherboard malfuctions under normal use and cant be solved via tech support, you think its a prominant problem in all the computers using that motherboard.

However it wasnt the motherboards fault. If they knew it was a graphics card they could of RMA'd the thing and gone on with their review, as any normal person would have. Nobody in their right mind would make a final review of a complete computer if something small happened. Would be like (since cars seem to be used alot) calling a Lexus an over-all peice of trash if a tire blew out within the first thousand miles. Its not a reprisentation of FNW's computers, therefore no normal review site would let that stand. They even admitted as much calling it a random bad incodent and not reprisenting what FNW usually produces, so why leave the review with such a poor score when it would take so little to fix?

Stubborn about the origonal reaction to what the motherboard is. Only logical, or rather illogical reason.

 

[Skrying]

I'm completely okay with the review's score for the most part, yes this is a random incident, but its still what happened. What I dont like is the fact that HardOCP took it upon themselves to try to point out the mistake, they said it was the motherboard, but it was indeed not, rather it was the video card. Rather than with the follow up say "We were wrong in accusing the motherboard for the stability issues, it was actually the video card all along", they keep slamming a motherboard that was perfectly fine. Makes no freaking sense, and how people even think its logical is beyond me.

 

[zg75]

Here's a review of the said DFI Lanparty board from Anandtech: http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=2572

It paints a TOTALLY different picture compared to Kyle's comments. So different that, actually, it makes him look like a clown.

Actually I think its kind of indicative of a trend at Anandtech...

Wow, is that why they never buy the occasional nVidia part but always review cherry picked nVidia/BFG hardware? Now that would make sense, considering BFG parts always had excellent reviews on TardOCP and now that they try a retail part, the video card caused system instability! Incredible!

I'm sorry but if you're going to start dwelling on conspiracy theories, things will just get out of hand like this.

Right, conspiracy theories like OMGZ THEY ARE BIASED AGAINST MY MASTERS AT ATi!?!!? OH NOZ!!! The [H] has worked directly with both nV and ATi, just ask ATi. They don't seem to think there is a bias against them at [H]ard|OCP.

 

[zg75]

And its hardly a conspiracy theory to think a hardware vendor who knew the part was going out for review would give the thing a few passes and make sure that it was an exceptional example of their hardware if given the chance. Do you think that they are retarded? They live and die by these reviews to a large extent.

 

[Skrying]

And its hardly a conspiracy theory to think a hardware vendor who knew the part was going out for review would give the thing a few passes and make sure that it was an exceptional example of their hardware if given the chance. Do you think that they are retarded? They live and die by these reviews to a large extent.

Umm, did you totally skip the part where this is a blind review. NFW did not know HardOCP would be reviewing their system, HardOCP bought the system and reviewed it, the system was not sent to HardOCP for evaluation.

 

[zg75]

Umm, did you totally skip the part where this is a blind review. NFW did not know HardOCP would be reviewing their system, HardOCP bought the system and reviewed it, the system was not sent to HardOCP for evaluation.

I was not talking about the FragBox2, I was speaking generally.

P.S. -- in re-reading the original article the frequency of crashes did decrease after CAS timings were altered, though they did not resolve the issue entirely, meaning it wasn't the only thing going on.

 

[Tim Murray]

Am I the only one who is kinda flabbergasted that some people think that one site is more correct than all others in every regard?

 

[Topweasel]

It wan't stable due to the bad video card not the chipset. During the troubleshooting process they tried various things to get the machine stable including playing with the memory timings. However it did not solve the problem since it was not the cause of the problem. what is so hard to understand about that?

Thats not the Point...... Everybody thinks that the poor rating for the FragBox and the the blurb about the ATI Chipset are the wholey connected. They are not.

The Fragbox got a low rating because it was unstable (no matter what reason). And while informed that It looked like a motherboard issue Kyle decided to rant about his displeasure of them using a x200 mobo. Myabe if they (Kyle, Chris or FNW) didn't think it was a bad mobo Kyle might not of ranted, it still doesn't mean that he is pleased with the use of a eco board in a 3,000 machine.

Think of it this way and explorer rolls over, everyone thinks the Firestone tires are at fault, so a police officer rants about the use of crappy tires on a $30,000 SUV. It turns out that the suspension failed and was at caused. Doesn't negate the fact that the Firestone tires suck and were responsible for several hundred other rollovers.

 

[Topweasel]

Wow, is that why they never buy the occasional nVidia part but always review cherry picked nVidia/BFG hardware? Now that would make sense, considering BFG parts always had excellent reviews on TardOCP and now that they try a retail part, the video card caused system instability! Incredible!

I'm sorry but if you're going to start dwelling on conspiracy theories, things will just get out of hand like this.

Damnit that hows the review world works. I remember with the Kowasaki during the zx12 and Busa wars sent reviewers hand built and tweaked zx12 because there was a bug in their design the review ones got to 201 ro 202 Mph but the retails only hit like 183. After about a year ZX12s started hitting 192 or so but never even came close to the ones in the reviews. This is why HardOCP just recently went to purchasing their parts to prevent a manufacturer sending them cherry picked parts.

We have seen Asus, DFI, and Epox board hit 315-320 HTT in reviews yet the limit on retail boards have been 305-311 except under extreme circumstances. Every company wants people to be looking at the best their product can do not the worst. That is also why recieving the Fragbox2 back would be have invalidated the point of the review. Now I am not sure if they have completely made the switch (probably not on CPUs and Video cards though) but their heart is in the right direction.

 

[digitalwanderer]

Am I the only one who is kinda flabbergasted that some people think that one site is more correct than all others in every regard?

Yes, yes you are...feel unique and special.

 

[bigz]

Got any data to backup what you said about the ATi chipset besides your pathetic excuse of "I have used them but never bothered to review them because they suck"?

Opps that's right you don't

http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NzgxLDc=

 

[Geo]

Ooooh, we should approach Dave about including that functionality!

The icon for it can be a little frying pan.

 

[YeuEmMaiMai]

http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NzgxLDc=

I guess you didn't read the last paragraph did you?

" work with computer systems every day that have to be tweaked or fine-tuned in order to make them work right. The Shuttle ST20G5 and its stable operation were beyond my abilities. I feel as though the ULi southbridge took what could have been a great low cost system and turned it into a pile of frustration and confusion. Quite simply, there is no way we would suggest you purchase the Shuttle ST20G5 based on our experiences here at HardOCP. Other solutions in the marketplace are just better choices due to their lack of the problems mentioned above."


Still not a problem with the ATi north bridge

 

[YeuEmMaiMai]

Thats not the Point...... Everybody thinks that the poor rating for the FragBox and the the blurb about the ATI Chipset are the wholey connected. They are not.

The Fragbox got a low rating because it was unstable (no matter what reason). And while informed that It looked like a motherboard issue Kyle decided to rant about his displeasure of them using a x200 mobo. Myabe if they (Kyle, Chris or FNW) didn't think it was a bad mobo Kyle might not of ranted, it still doesn't mean that he is pleased with the use of a eco board in a 3,000 machine.

Think of it this way and explorer rolls over, everyone thinks the Firestone tires are at fault, so a police officer rants about the use of crappy tires on a $30,000 SUV. It turns out that the suspension failed and was at caused. Doesn't negate the fact that the Firestone tires suck and were responsible for several hundred other rollovers.

They ripped on the MB wrongly so. Even after it was discovered that it was a video card failure they sill had to rip on ATi's chipset.

 

[Topweasel]

Let me just mention this once again, because someone pointed out the DFI Lanparty board.

A friend of mine has the DFI Lanparty Xpress 200 board and he can run it at 280MHz FSB and 300MHz RAM with Geil One memories at very low timings. This is just how good the board can overclock.

Kyle's opinions are just his opinions, they are in no way factual and very likely heavily biased.

Here's a review of the said DFI Lanparty board from Anandtech: http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=2572

It paints a TOTALLY different picture compared to Kyle's comments. So different that, actually, it makes him look like a clown.



I believe nothing further needs be said.

Sadly ATI calls all of their chipsets Express 200s, The one in that review is a RD480 the one that Kyle has been having issues with was the RD 420 I think, may be older. Not exactly Apples to apples. The fact that originally exen the Crossfire boards were going to use ULI southbridges because of inherent problems with the ATI version speaks volumes. Luckily the delay on crossfire let them work most of the bugs out. As for first tries this isn't as good as the Nforce 1 but still better then most first tries. Besides the inherent SLI Vs. Crossfire with them not working on the other I forsee a great life of ATI in the chipset market. That doesn't mean that people specially ones purchasing 3,000 should use them or beforced to use them. The RD480 is another subject and while not many people have boards that use it, it looks like it may be a good chipset, not good enough for me to get rid of my NForce SLI board but, good.

 

[Topweasel]

They ripped on the MB wrongly so. Even after it was discovered that it was a video card failure they sill had to rip on ATi's chipset.

They were told that it was a mobo issue and thought it was themselves. You would rather have them go back and hide the fact that they said it just because you don't like it, thats not good, you take the good with the bad. They said it was the video later and thats that. The ripping in of the Chipset was a personal choice and whether or not you liked it Kyle felt it was something worth saying. True that the thought of a mobo prob may have been a catalyst but still doesn't invalidate his feelings.

 

[bigz]

I guess you didn't read the last paragraph did you?

" work with computer systems every day that have to be tweaked or fine-tuned in order to make them work right. The Shuttle ST20G5 and its stable operation were beyond my abilities. I feel as though the ULi southbridge took what could have been a great low cost system and turned it into a pile of frustration and confusion. Quite simply, there is no way we would suggest you purchase the Shuttle ST20G5 based on our experiences here at HardOCP. Other solutions in the marketplace are just better choices due to their lack of the problems mentioned above."


Still not a problem with the ATi north bridge

It is not the northbridge that is the issue. It's the southbridge that has the issues. There are no major problems with the Northbridge.

That's why many motherboard manufacturers are releasing motherboards with the ULi southbridge instead. It's not a great southbridge for RAID, but it's a damn sight better than SB450 in just about every department.

I was out in Taiwan in September speaking to several of the guys in Technical Marketing for some of the larger motherboard manufacturers and they're all very sceptical about releasing motherboards using the SB450 southbridge. The engineers don't like the southbridge at all. Why do you think DFI are rumoured to be releasing an updated CrossFire board with the ULi southbridge? They've only just got the CF-DR out of the door.

I've got that board sitting here, but I haven't had the chance to look at it properly yet, as I've been waiting for a CrossFire card to arrive. However, I was speaking to my colleagues at Bit-Tech's sister publication. They've fully tested the board and they weren't impressed with it by any stretch of the imagination. I don't think Kyle is alone with the CF-DR - I'm still waiting for some better BIOSes to come out in all honesty.

Where are the final versions of the CrossFire boards from ASUS & Gigabyte? I've seen the board from MSI, but that is based on the ULi southbridge, same with the ABIT CrossFire board too. The ULi southbridge's drivers are a nightmare at best from my experiences, but it is a lot better than the SB450 when looking at the bigger picture. Why do you think so many motherboard manufacturers are opting for the ULi southbridge over SB450?