GT4 or Forza? Which one do you think will take the crown?

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Josh378

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Just wondering since ALL over forums people have been discussing about the best racing simulater on a console, and usually when one think if it, it's usually the GT series...do you think that the GT series will be dethroned by the racing game known as Forza....what do you programmers and designers think? Your voices are needed....

-Josh378
 
GT4 has a far more experienced team (Polyphony Digital) and has a MASSIVE production budget. Microsoft is foolish to claim that Forza will better GT4...
 
Hard to tell. I know little to nothing on Forza and am trying to get more information on it. To me, whichever has a better car list and tracks (more comprehensive) will get my buy. Gameplay, physics, AI, are all important too. Graphics are a no brainer but GT4 already has great graphics.
 
GT 4, three years of hard work by Polyphony means an astounding polished product, Forza seems a neat raciang game, but GT 4 will give a better package plus Imho graphic wise Forza does not top GT 4.
 
The Gran Turismo games are certainly comprehensive as mentioned, but I don't know how good of a racing simulator they actually are. From what I've read, Forza goes a long, long way beyond GT4 in that department.

There was an interview with the Forza team copied here a while back, and it covered many ways in which the game was simulating aspects of racing and incorporating AI not even touched upon by other games.
 
Lazy8s said:
The Gran Turismo games are certainly comprehensive as mentioned, but I don't know how good of a racing simulator they actually are. From what I've read, Forza goes a long, long way beyond GT4 in that department.

There was an interview with the Forza team copied here a while back, and it covered many ways in which the game was simulating aspects of racing and incorporating AI not even touched upon by other games.

In Fact, forza is so good they are going beyond realism :oops:
 
Lazy8s said:
From what I've read, Forza goes a long, long way beyond GT4 in that department.

HOW long exactly? In metric units, preferably. ;)

How long do you think one can go on a celeon 733 that has to run the entire game anyway?
 
Lazy8s said:
The Gran Turismo games are certainly comprehensive as mentioned, but I don't know how good of a racing simulator they actually are

Lazy8s said:
There's still a lot of room to cover between Gran Turismo and reality. Look at PGR2, in some respects.

How do you know that PGR2 goes beyond GT4 considering you admit not to know how good GT4 is as a racing simulator ??

:?
 
Guden Oden:
How long do you think one can go on a celeon 733 that has to run the entire game anyway?
Further on Xbox than on PS2 in many ways, logically.

wazoo:
How do you know that PGR2 goes beyond GT4 considering you admit not to know how good GT4 is as a racing simulator ??
I'm skeptical of how much of a simulator the GT series is compared to the driving of some PC sims and a game like F355. With respect to PGR2, it goes further in at least the simulation of visual car damage.

Anyway, here's the Forza interview at Xbox.com:
Xbox.com: There are a lot of racing games available for Xbox right now. What is it about Forza Motorsport that differentiates it from games like Project Gotham Racing® 2 or RalliSport Challenge 2?

Greenawalt: Forza Motorsport is a pure simulation engine wrapped in an accessible motorsport-based game world. With realistic assists, fantastic tactile control, and player feedback, gamers will be able to pick up and play. However, because of the depth of the physics, the player can continue to learn about the car and travel the path of mastery as a racing car driver. Every car is a new experience. Weight and friction transition realistically, allowing great racers to express themselves through their driving. Meanwhile, we’ve employed realistic traction and anti-spin assists that will allow inexperienced drivers to compete and be successful.

Our tire and suspension model is extremely realistic. We partnered with Toyo tires to get real-world data on production and race tires to model in the game. Our tire model exhibits pressure, wear, heat, and load sensitivity. Tire friction is also affected by the rubber groove and marbles on the road.

We worked with an engineer from Ferrari’s F1 program to completely simulate real-world suspensions. When configured to simulate a double “A†arm suspension, the track decreases as the suspension compresses and negative camber is introduced. In turn, the camber and weight affect the tire heat and thus pressure. Most consoles simply do not have the power to compute what we’re computing for the physics and still render a game.

Xbox.com: We’ve heard that some members of the development team are hardcore racing fans. How deep is their involvement with the sport, and how has that influenced the design of the game?

Greenawalt: We’ve got a very passionate and well-connected team. Some are professional racers, while others are hardcore racing fans. Monday morning water-cooler talk invariably revolves around the weekend’s televised F1, ALMS, MotoGP or SpeedGT race … or our latest speeding ticket …

One of the developers was fifth on the wait list for an Enzo. When he found out the Seattle Ferrari dealer was only going to receive three, he dropped off the list and ordered a Lamborghini. This same developer drives his 360 Modena at its limit at track days—and on his way to the office. The first time I met this developer, he had just climbed out of his car at Laguna Seca, where he placed seventh in a Star Mazda open-wheel race.

One of our artists is a professional Rally driver. Two team members have raced in open-wheel leagues. We have several accomplished motorcycle racers. We’ve also got some serious tuners and car collectors. A recent addition to the team has an AC Cobra replica making more than 600 hp in a 1500lb body. The rumble from that car will rattle your teeth loose. When this project began, our planner had an RX7 with a suspension so tight that you needed kidney dialysis after a ride in it. Lately, I’ve been working with the design lead for PGR 2 on my S4. On the outside it’s pretty stealthy, but I assure you that it’s got boost. It still can’t compete with his Viper ACR, but a project car can’t be built overnight!

Most of the team is addicted to going fast. In developing a simulator, you couldn’t ask to be surrounded by better subject matter experts. Whether the subject is car tuning, car upgrades, or track layouts, I always have the best resources sitting just down the hall from me.

Xbox.com: Were there any racing games that inspired your team? If so, what were they?

Greenawalt: Obviously, the GT series has been a huge influence on this team. Personally speaking, the original Gran Turismo was the only reason I bought my first console. Without that game, several of us probably wouldn’t have become involved in this industry. Polyphony has created a great series.

I’m sure many will see the influence of SEGA’s classic Ferrari 355 coin-op game in our E3 presentation. We have a 355 machine with a triple-screen set up in the lobby of our office. The art lead and I still love to play the old Sportcar GT game for the PC. It was a great blend of simulation and accessible fun. It also had really cool cars and real-world tracks.

A few team members participate in PC online racing sim leagues for Papyrus’ Grand Prix Legends and NASCAR Racing 2003. These games have a small, but fanatical following. Some of these communities have created third-party telemetry and replay analyzer programs as well as huge content mod packs. Recently, one of my buddies showed me an online league based on a version of F1 2004 that was mod-ed to have FIA GT and ALMS cars and tracks. That looked pretty fun … but extremely challenging. These hard-core communities are a better source of inspiration than any game could be.

Xbox.com: Describe the gameplay of Forza Motorsport. Is it pure simulation? Will gamers be able to “pick up and play†a single race as well as play an entire season in a career mode?

Greenawalt: Its career is a racing sandbox—with hundreds of hours of customization and racing gameplay. The game’s unlocking and progression structure is a blend between open-ended exploration and linear leveling.

In Forza Motorsport, you can collect and personalize cars from more than 60 of the world’s top manufacturers. These cars can then be driven in hundreds of races, which are broken down into a dozen different real-world race types. If hot-lapping is your thing, have at it. If you prefer point-to-point racing, we have that, too. Looking for standard circuit racing? We have lots of that on both real-world race tracks and stunning fictitious race tracks. Forza Motorsport also contains interesting race types plucked from throughout the world of motorsports, so it doesn’t limit you to a linear path. You can gain money and prestige whenever and wherever you want.

Xbox.com: Realistic artificial intelligence seems difficult to achieve in games. How is the development team ensuring the quality of the single-player experience?

Greenawalt: Everyone talks about A.I. in racing games. Rather than spitting out features, let me simply frame our approach and let you draw your own conclusions. You know when I was saying that we’ve assembled a team of all-stars? I wasn’t kidding. We actually have several high-level developers working on our A.I. alone. Our main A.I. developer is new to games, but incredibly experienced in A.I. He’s a PhD A.I. developer from Microsoft’s research division. In the past, he’s worked on robots and learning A.I. systems. He’s teaming with our research division in Cambridge, England, to approach A.I. from a completely different angle.

It’s really cool to see a group approaching this problem from a completely new angle. Rather than giving the A.I. different car physics, a predestined spline, and random seed to mix it up, these guys are creating thinking A.I. that drive Forza Motorsport’s remarkably complex physics engine. Even our A.I. difficulty levels are based on learning artificial intelligence. Lower-difficulty A.I. makes human-like mistakes, such as late braking and late apex-ing.

It’s sort of hypnotic to watch the A.I. learn. I’ll tune a new car and give it over to the developer to train the A.I. driver. The A.I. driver then takes over the car and starts putting together laps. The laps get better and better as the A.I. tests out the new car’s limits. After a couple of laps, the A.I. is putting together really fast times in the exact same car physics the player drives. What’s even more amazing is that the A.I. doesn’t have to relearn on other tracks. It just applies what it knows about the car’s abilities and starts churning out hot-laps on the new track.

If you don’t work in this industry, you might not understand how unprecedented this is. Every other racing game I’ve seen has used slightly different physics and predestined splines for the A.I. The artificial intelligence in Forza Motorsport is truly intelligent.

Xbox.com: How will physics and damage modeling affect gameplay?

Greenawalt: The on-track experience is a simulation. However, we have customizable levels of difficulty, in the form of damage, assists, and opponent skill, that allow you to alter your experience.

Forza Motorsport features performance-affecting damage. However, realistic damage can be extremely punishing. Therefore, we’ve integrated damage into the difficulty system. You can play with fully simulated damage, limited damage, or simply cosmetic damage.

Challenging yourself will increase the rewards for winning. With the difficulty settings at default, I expect most players to be able to pick up and play the game successfully. Meanwhile, they are encouraged and armed to grow their racing skills.

Xbox.com: To what extent will players be able to customize their vehicles?

Greenawalt: The upgrades fall into three buckets: appearance upgrades, performance upgrades, and performance tuning.

The cars, from more than 60 manufacturers, include some hot sport compact cars like the Dodge SRT4 and Nissan 350Z. We’ve licensed real-world body kits for the hot tuner cars. These are the appearance upgrades. Based on the number of kits we’ve created, we have several billion possible visual car permutations. Of course, we are a simulator, so each of these kits has weight and aero components to them as well. We also have an extremely powerful paint job editor. This editor allows you to place decals and vinyl primitives all over the car. You’re not limited to specific shapes and locations, so you can go ahead and freestyle.

As for tuning and performance upgrades, let’s just say, you’ve never been able to do the level of tuning available in Forza Motorsport—ignition timing, boost pressure, fuel ratio, not to mention the standard tire pressure, camber, caster, toe, gear ratios … In the upgrade category, Forza Motorsport includes everything you need to transform your stock performance car into an absolute track monster. And, of course, all of the parts are based directly on real-world upgrades you’d find on the track, from cat-bypass and cat-back exhaust to centrifugal superchargers, large surface area intercoolers, cold air intake, and triple-plate clutch.


Xbox.com: Anything you’d like to add in closing?

Greenawalt: This game is made by car freaks in the hopes of infecting the world. If you know a ton about cars and racing technology, you’ll appreciate the depth. If you’re a racer, you’ll be able to express yourself in the incredible physics engine. If you don’t know much about cars, but still get saucer eyes when you see a bright red sports car or a hot tuner car rolling down the strip, you’re gonna love this game.
 
As an experienced F355 Dreamcast owner, I have to say that F355 doesn't even come close to simulating reality like Gran Turismo does, but yes, with that said, Gran Turismo doesn't simulate that close to reality either, but that's a limitaiton of today's technology (or should I say 2000 tech). That said, I don't think GT is topped by any other standard consumer based driving sim.
 
Josh378 said:
do you think that the GT series will be dethroned by the racing game known as Forza....

That depends on what you are trying to accomplish.
If your goal is to make the best-selling driving game, then trying to simulate real-world complexity is the last thing you'd want to do, simply because complexity minimizes playability, which, in turn, limits your consumer base. ;)

Like gobs of other racing games, Forza will probably seize the "Real Driving Simulator" crown before disappearing into obscurity ...

What will topple Gran Turismo isn't simulation but cinematics. :idea:
 
Pepto-Bismol said:
If your goal is to make the best-selling driving game, then trying to simulate real-world complexity is the last thing you'd want to do, simply because complexity minimizes playability, which, in turn, limits your consumer base. ;)

What will topple Gran Turismo isn't simulation but cinematics. :idea:

How does better simulating realworld physics reduce playability? It depends on how you match your game design/ controls to the physics :? GT dethroned previous franchises, e.g. Ridge Racer, by a combination better physics, game design and structure, sheer number of customizable cars, tracks, soundtrack, and shiny graphics. But the core game is the physics engine! :) ...and toppling GT with cinematics, hey?...not one thing does a game make...
 
Jaws said:
How does better simulating realworld physics reduce playability?

I think he making references to like how Papyrus used to make some of the best racing simulations out there physics wise but as a result increased the difficulty level for people much more used to arcade and movie like physics. Too bad Papyrus is dead, but they definately had the best racing physics engine out there (just couldn't get anyone to buy their games except diehards as a result).
 
"If your goal is to make the best-selling driving game, then trying to simulate real-world complexity is the last thing you'd want to do, simply because complexity minimizes playability, which, in turn, limits your consumer base."

Well that is half-right. For a racing sim you do want to simulate as much as possible on the hardware you are targeting. That will give you something that is pretty unplayable and definitely not fun, but impressive. Then you add forces/constraints on the vehicle to make it game worthy. The most common example is having all your simulation code run its corse then hardcode a check to keep the vehicle mostly upright.
 
Seems to me just easier to change your model to not allow you to flip easily instead of going to the trouble to have a realstic model than just limit the bounds of what the model can say so the cars handle better.

Though I can see how you can kinda keep the feel of realism by doing that though.
 
"Seems to me just easier to change your model to not allow you to flip easily instead of going to the trouble to have a realstic model than just limit the bounds of what the model can say so the cars handle better."

There is a scene in the movie "Heart of Darkness", I think, the one about the making of Apocalypse Now, where Francis Ford Coppola is 'scolding' Dennis Hopper for ad-libbing in a scene. He tells Hopper that you have to know your lines before you're allowed to forget them.

I'm not saying that is how everyone does, but it certainly is how all the ones I've worked on or have knowledge of do it. People/players are really sensitive to discontinuities in motion curves or "programmer physics" and keeping the heart of simulation "pure" with constraints built on top of it seems to have the best reaction from players.
 
Setting the optimum bounds/limits to a realistic physics engine and a control system is definitely the key to enhance the playability. :cool: I presume this is the reason why you can't flip cars in GT?
 
I'm skeptical of how much of a simulator the GT series is compared to the driving of some PC sims and a game like F355. With respect to PGR2, it goes further in at least the simulation of visual car damage.

Anyway, here's the Forza interview at Xbox.com:
GT is the only racing game I know that gets coverage from car hobbyist magazines, and used for building simulators demonstrated at various car shows/exhibitions. I'm not an enthusiast, someone following all this should be able to provide all the links.
 
LogisticX said:
As an experienced F355 Dreamcast owner, I have to say that F355 doesn't even come close to simulating reality like Gran Turismo does, but yes, with that said, Gran Turismo doesn't simulate that close to reality either, but that's a limitaiton of today's technology (or should I say 2000 tech). That said, I don't think GT is topped by any other standard consumer based driving sim.

I played the hell out of both F355 and GT3 and I'd say that F355 to me is the more realistic simulator. The way that the car behaves when you accelerate, brake, take curves, it just "feels" right. Thing is, it's also a lot easier for F355 to nail reaslism as good as it does because there's really just one car to simulate, whereas GT3 has hundreds of cars. Considering everything GT3 has going for it (car selection, buying new parts, tuning your vehicule), I'd still say that it's the overall superior simulator though.
 
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