Got my kinyo 5.1 head phones

[T2k]

A "subwoofer" in a headphone is essentially a tweeter tickling your eardrum. Even though it may be possible for some 'phones to produce sub-bass, especially the open enclosure kind (albeit distorted) Sub-bass is not so much heard, as felt. When listening to bass on my SVS sub, I feel my skin vibrate, my sofa vibrate, and indeed, the air around the room seems to swirl.

The only problem here if your sofa vibrates that's a bad setup, sorry.

There's simply no way a headphone "subwoofer" is going to deliver that experience. Get a good sub capable of extension down to 16-25Hz. Go pick up Avia and do a low frequency sweep. Now do it on your headphones and tell me the experience is even close.

*shrug*

Who TF whants the same?

Obviously never be the same - it isn't intended to be whatsoever.

It's a good trade-off, you know.

In case if you haven't noticed we're talking about gaming.

There's no game with 24/96 quality 5.1 sound, you know, etc ...

The purpose of a subwoofer is to rock your whole body, so when the pump action shotgun goes off, or the Attack of the Clones Sonic Mines, you feel like something hit you.

Interesting.
I thought the purpose of the subwoofer is to have a separate, dedicated sub-channel, not a rally chair.

 

[Vadi]

But that's the point of a 5.1 system. The subwoofer channel is there for frequencies of 15Hz to 150Hz. Also the centre speaker is extremely important.


edit: So it's actually a 4 channel system. For gaming it might be good enough. But the centre speaker is important!

 

[T2k]

But that's the point of a 5.1 system. The subwoofer channel is there for frequencies of 15Hz to 150Hz. Also the centre speaker is extremely important.


edit: So it's actually a 4 channel system. For gaming it might be good enough. But the centre speaker is important!

? Speedlink's Medusa has separated left-center-right-sub speakers per flapper.
That's a total of 8 channels.

 

[jvd]

But that's the point of a 5.1 system. The subwoofer channel is there for frequencies of 15Hz to 150Hz. Also the centre speaker is extremely important.


edit: So it's actually a 4 channel system. For gaming it might be good enough. But the centre speaker is important!

? Speedlink's Medusa has separated left-center-right-sub speakers per flapper.
That's a total of 8 channels.

T2k these are the speed links , they too have 4 speakers per head phone.

 

[Vadi]

Speedlink's Medusa has separated left-center-right-sub speakers per flapper.
That's a total of 8 channels.

But that doesn't make them subwoofers. You don't call the woofer of a 2-way speaker a subwoofer, do you?

 

[T2k]

Speedlink's Medusa has separated left-center-right-sub speakers per flapper.
That's a total of 8 channels.

But that doesn't make them subwoofers. You don't call the woofer of a 2-way speaker a subwoofer, do you?

Excuse me?

Did you check its specs?

 

[T2k]

But that's the point of a 5.1 system. The subwoofer channel is there for frequencies of 15Hz to 150Hz. Also the centre speaker is extremely important.


edit: So it's actually a 4 channel system. For gaming it might be good enough. But the centre speaker is important!

? Speedlink's Medusa has separated left-center-right-sub speakers per flapper.
That's a total of 8 channels.

T2k these are the speed links , they too have 4 speakers per head phone.

I know, I know, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

 

[DemoCoder]

The only problem here if your sofa vibrates that's a bad setup, sorry.

Nope, it's not a bad setup. You can soundproof rooms, you can't soundproof a Sofa from every frequency between 16-120Hz. A good room setup prevents room attentuation and structural vibrations, but one cannot shield a couch. If you run a frequency sweep from 120-20 on your sub, and at no point can you feel any vibrations at any frequency, your sub frankly sucks. My sub tickles the hair on people's skin at about 26 Hz.

In case if you haven't noticed we're talking about gaming.

There's no game with 24/96 quality 5.1 sound, you know, etc ...

I game on my HT system, especially console games, and there certainly are many console games with DD/DTS output, but that's not really relevant. Even with stereo output, you want a low frequency crossover to sound sub-bass to a subwoofer. Bass response is not strictly a feature of 5.1 digital tracks.

I thought the purpose of the subwoofer is to have a separate, dedicated sub-channel, not a rally chair.

The purpose of the subwoofer is to faithfully reproduce frequencies <120Hz with low distortion and with no unacceptable power loss. The purpose of special sound effects, like explosions, is to reproduce accurately the sound of an explosion, just like the purpose of your front speakers is to reproduce the hi.mid range of real music instruments. Since part of our perception of sub-bass is tactile, not audible, a reproduction at low power levels is not faithful to the original.

Headphones are fine, no one is bashing people who want to use headphones, especially for sound control and to not disturb others. But the claim that headphones equal or exceed the fidelity of real speaker setups is nonsense.

 

[MuFu]

Speedlink's Medusa has separated left-center-right-sub speakers per flapper.
That's a total of 8 channels.

But that doesn't make them subwoofers. You don't call the woofer of a 2-way speaker a subwoofer, do you?

Excuse me?

Did you check its specs?

They quote "20-120Hz". Likely this with @-6dB roll-off or greater. I very much doubt they're capable of producing clean sub-bass. The figures relating to the amp alone quote <0.5% THD, which is appalling.

Go and get a demo of a Servo-15, Velodyne DD15/18 or a big SVS. Even a high-end pair of cans might be a wake-up call. HD650, Sony CD3000 etc. They're all fucking expensive, of course.

I'm with DC - headphones can't produce anything like the experience of a decent sub. I wouldn't say they can't produce subsonic frequencies accurately though - after all, it is a tiny cavity that the driver has to load and there are situations in which, should they be good enough, more-or-less all you'll feel is pressure in your ears. It's just weird having your brain vibrate without feeling anything in your guts. I went through a phase of watching films using Dolby Headphone (partly to keep the noise down and partly because my headphones are a lot more transparent than my speakers). It's just not the same as using a sub - the soundstage is incoherant and unrealistic and you don't get that "trouser-flapping/sofa wobbling" effect. Besides, a clean low end is not all about explosions - it gives a tangibility to doors opening/closing, floorboards groaning, cars/trains going past, the dull thud of an upright bass player's fingers etc. It's quite a revelation if you haven't experienced it before (most multiplex cinemas fall short, IMHO) and once you have, you know to STFU where previously you might have said "OMGOMG!!! MY 6" SUB iS DA SHIT! BOOM BOOM!!!".

Here in the UK, you can almost categorically say that you can't buy a decent sub for under £300. Even then you're still only talking about a flat response down to about 25Hz or so. Anything worse and a lot of people might will argue that you're wasting your money (I don't necessarily agree, but it's infuriating when someone fucks up their system with a sub that's vastly inferior to the rest of their stuff).

BTW this isn't directed at anybody in particular. Just a general rant.

 

[digitalwanderer]

Thanks MuFu, lots of good info to chew over....but I still think my 8" long throw is the shit because it goes "BOOM-BOOM, THUMP-THUMP" really loud.

 

[T2k]

Mufu: I agree it's most likely not what the specs said BUT you can't say anything until you did not check. That was the essence of my reply to Vadi.


(By the way I do some music creation/production/mixing stuff home - I'm pretty much OK with sounds and frequencies I think. )

 

[MuFu]

Mufu: I agree it's most likely not what the specs said BUT you can't say anything until you did not check. That was the essence of my reply to Vadi.

Well the essence of my reply was "show me a pair of headphones under $50 that can produce good sub bass". It's just not possible to do without a certain standard of composition and engineering that inflates the price. Headphones that use multiple drivers are even worse in this respect. I was just suprised at the "Excuse me? " part. You don't have to look up the specs to know that they're not true subwoofers.

(By the way I do some music creation/production/mixing stuff home - I'm pretty much OK with sounds and frequencies I think. )

Well then maybe you should know better. I see this point made a lot, and while I neither profess to know what equipment you have at home, or be an expert in the field, I know that home production as a hobby tends to give one an extremely contained appreciation of dynamic range and frequency empirics compared to those with access to reference-grade equipment. This is the distorted view shared by most, and that studios tend to mix for these days (e.g. with high-levels of compression, mid-bass lift, stage expansion etc). It's fine for most consumer-level gear but sucks when you're pouring $$$'s into hi-fi. The masses win-out though, I guess.

 

[DemoCoder]

SVS is amazing, price performance wise. For ~$500, you can get amazing subs, and their customer service is great for being a small company that only makes subs. Of course, the "Plus" line and non-wife-friendly 16Hz versions (with a port you can alter to go down to 10Hz!) are even better, and only marginally more expensive.

I just watched the Star Wars DVD trilogy the last few days and the lightsaber base is amazing. The humm almost feels like electricity crackling around you it's so intense.

 

[T2k]

(By the way I do some music creation/production/mixing stuff home - I'm pretty much OK with sounds and frequencies I think. )

Well then maybe you should know better.

? Pardon me?

I see this point made a lot, and while I neither profess to know what equipment you have at home, or be an expert in the field, I know that home production as a hobby tends to give one an extremely contained appreciation of dynamic range and frequency empirics compared to those with access to reference-grade equipment. This is the distorted view shared by most, and that studios tend to mix for these days (e.g. with high-levels of compression, mid-bass lift, stage expansion etc). It's fine for most consumer-level gear but sucks when you're pouring $$$'s into hi-fi. The masses win-out though, I guess.

Oh boy...

1. Do NOT 'home product' anything but doing some production home. These are two different things - read again my post.
2. I do know enough about analog I think - much more than you'd expect based on my current position (CTO), though I admit I graduated long time ago.
3. I don't really use any so-called 'hi-fi' gear. I do have some pro audio gear and that's it. Those are completely different stuff and therefore I'm not really affected by the mentioned 'distorted view', as you dubbed.

I'm not saying I'm some very experienced studio engineer - but at least I'm not taking seriously the whole surround headphone qquestion. It's cool to have one - strictly for gaming, of course.

FYI: in case if you haven't noticed, I wasn't too serious about this whole headphone-bass subject. You guys are confused: it's for PC gaming, period.
It's pretty to read these 'dissertations', regarding whether it's a 'real' sub or not... C'mon. Perfect for gaming, isn't it?

PS: You know, it's pretty funny... I was the first from the few who said D3's sound mixing is a bold mediocre, nothing more, despite the lamers' hype about it.

 

[Vadi]

but I still think my 8" long throw is the shit

I bought a Kenwood Series 21 hi-fi set. It has 2 10 inch subs. Although it was cheap back then (1500 euros instead of 2000 euros new for AC-3/MPEG preamp with radio, CD-player, double cassette-deck, 6*100W power-amp, speakers [bipolar rears - only good for DolbySurround]) I read later that subs should be at least 12 inches and that bugs me.


edit: Actually my point was that I'm (still) looking forward to using 5.1 for gaming.

 

[T2k]

SVS is amazing, price performance wise. For ~$500, you can get amazing subs, and their customer service is great for being a small company that only makes subs. Of course, the "Plus" line and non-wife-friendly 16Hz versions (with a port you can alter to go down to 10Hz!) are even better, and only marginally more expensive.

I just watched the Star Wars DVD trilogy the last few days and the lightsaber base is amazing. The humm almost feels like electricity crackling around you it's so intense.

Ehhh... pay a little extra and forget these home user stuffs... even under thousand you can get 'real' subs like Genelec and such.

 

[DemoCoder]

The smaller Genelec subs are frankly inferior to SVS on every level - FR, low frequency extension, THD, etc Who wants subs which are maxed out at 19hz, 29hz, and 36Hz respectively, and which have non-flat response curves?

The only thing the Genelec subs have over others is high SPL, but most movies are mastered at a level of 85db, and THX recommends that playback be calibrated at that level. So SPL peaks of 110-120db not only distort the soundtrack, they are frankly dangerous to eardrums.

Frankly, people who buy Pro Studio equipment for Home Theater are morons. Most studio equipment is designed for near-field listening, and priced for a market willing to absorb the costs: in other words, overpriced for the amount of improvement one might expect. Is a $28,000 Krell sub with 2600 watts worth it for someone with a home theater? No.

Frankly, Genelecs aren't even in the running for people who build HTs for a living. It's the wrong equipment for the job. Music reproduction and reproduction of 5.1 DTS/Dolby movie soundtracks are different. A "Pro Studio" monitor is simply moronic for this task, since most are near-field and designed for a studio environment. One can gain benefits of XLR-style noise reduction, without paying an arm-and-a-leg for Pro Studio versions which are unable to fillup a room anyway.

 

[T2k]

It's pretty funny: I hear the same things every time when somebody arguing how cool are those cheap (under $1000) subs...

Anyway, if you really interested, here's a link for you: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=439982

ALso on cheap subs: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=450527

PS: studio reference monitors and HT are two different animalss, don't get confused. Especially careful with linear stuf...

 

[DemoCoder]

Explain why if one has a sub which produces flat response all the way down to 16Hz @ 90db +- 3db and peak at 112db, low THD and oise, can adequately fill a large room, why one would need a $4000 sub with identical frequency response, only at 130db and utilizing 2500 watts with 10,000 watts peak?

Who the hell needs this much power for a home theater which is optimized for 85db, and who in their right mind would want to listen to 110-130db continuous which causes hearing loss after even short listening periods!

Of course, HT and studio reference are different. This entire conversion is about reproducing 5.1 soundtracks from games and movies. You don't use studio reference monitors to do that, you use speakers designed for a HT environment. Thus, demeaning "cheap" subs which reproduce sound according to THX specifications and beyond is silly. Pressing people to buy multithousand dollar subs for HT usage is selling snakeoil by making people waste money on something they do not need.

 

[Moloch]

Yes the bass is better on my 7.1 set up. But the directional sound is much better on the head phones .


Btw whle my whole body doesn't shake my head does and its really good. Esp for a painkiller season till 4 or 5 am when my parents under my room are asleep and i can't use a sound system.

You live with your parents.. wow..
I do to, I just thought.. nevermind
I have logitech Z5300, pretty good for dvds, but the sub isn't nearly as good as I want it to be.
I kinda listen to a bit of crystall method and I'm fairly certain im missing an assload of sub level stuff, and the sub is only a 6" in bandpass..
prolly goes down to 40hz..
I went to the good guys a week ago, and even their cheepy sub setup there was quite uber compared to my sub.
Oh and democoder, how much did you pay for that SVS
When I win the lotery, I want an uber 15" or something for home theater that can go down to atleast 20hz.. and shake the crap out of everything.