Getting really pissed with the record business!

LeStoffer

Veteran
I just got seriously pissed with the recording industry this week! :devilish:

I’m talking about copy protection of audio CD’s done in a totally unacceptable way.

One of the most used schemes right now is CactusDataShield 200 and boy was I in for an distasteful surprise, when I saw what they have done to my music! These are tests of the level of errors that the new Massive Attack: 100th Window and Radiohead: Hail to the thief (test done with the brand new Plextor Premium):

http://www.lestoffer.dk/Massive.gif

http://www.lestoffer.dk/radiohead.gif

Yikes! o_O

The C1 errors are on every cd (pressed or burned) but usually at a much lower number (e.g. 2000 to 5000 is good). While these errors will be corrected without a problem in a error-circuit, too many of them can cause problems. Note the massive amount on both cd's!

The C2 errors should not be present on a new pressed cd (and even an only decent burned cd-r shouldn’t introduce them). These should usually be corrected without problem, but again too many of them will cause problems.

The CU errors are uncorrectable errors. These are deemed as destroyed samples that the circuit cannot reconstruct and interpolation is thus done. Interpolation can be done on audio but sometimes ticks and clicks will be the result.

The basic truth is that these cd’s are intentionally being sold in a damaged shape. In other words: They come prebuilt with scratches, so while they might play in most audio equipment it will probably just be a matter of time before the real scratches add up and render the cd useless.

Wonderful. Just wonderful.

And here’s the real bugger: They do it for copy protection, but guess what: my Plextor Premium rips the tracks super fast without any ticks and clicks as long as I set it up to ignore the CU-errors and interpolate (like a cd player would have to do anyway). A burned copy will then give a near perfect cd with like 3000 C1 errors. :rolleyes:
 
I understand your frustration, but you should be more irate at music pirates than the companies that sell the music.

They have two choices:

1) Increase the sales price of CDs (pisses consumers off)
2) Make duplication less and less desirable (side effect of pissing consumers off)
 
OMG... I have to tell a little story here...

Mother went out to get me Linkin Park: Meteora on the day of its release. She got the CD-only version though, which I naturally gave her hell for... she didn't notice the DVD version (though now that I think about it, it could've been sold out already, or at least all the ones on the shelf could've been gone) or something.

Anyway, a week later at Best Buy, I was looking at the DVD-inclusive version, and talked to a guy in the store for a moment, and joked with him about that little story. The guy I talked to, a Best Buy employee, said he didn't even have to worry about that because he just downloaded the whole CD two weeks before its release. That's a big WTF in my books... I should've told his employer, just for laughs. :)
 
Things aren't as henious as you suggest, LeStoffer.

From an investigation one of my compadres did, it seems like the hard errors are in places where the values interpolate correctly.

It fucks up CD-ROM type drives that get all uppity about proper reading., but audio CD players interpolate it correctly and comes up with the correct audio samples. No pop or click.
 
Joe, I have to disagree strongly here because I totally accept that the record business adds copy protection if it doesn't do so by doing damage to the product - the art form, the music - that I buy.

Show this CDS200 protection to a hi-fi Enthusiast (I'm not one myself) and he/she will absolutely freak out on the fact that the CD Player is forced to interpolate the music/art. There's no guarantee that it will reconstruct the music as the artist intended it for starters, but the sound quality will also be subpar from the get-go.

Right now the U.S. consumers apparently aren't as hard hit as us European fools, but at least some are starting to realize just how unacceptable this truely is:

http://www.heise.de/ct/cd-register/default.shtml

You should ask yourself as a consumer whether it is really okay for you to be forced to buy a product that is damaged in order to make sure you can't reproduce an [otherwise] good copy of it.
 
RussSchultz said:
Things aren't as henious as you suggest, LeStoffer.

From an investigation one of my compadres did, it seems like the hard errors are in places where the values interpolate correctly.

It fucks up CD-ROM type drives that get all uppity about proper reading., but audio CD players interpolate it correctly and comes up with the correct audio samples. No pop or click.

You're probably very right that they made sure it didn't happen at fatal places, but please remember that the room for future errors have been greatly reduced (which you will note with car cd-players that are bound to introduce some error once in a while).

Point being: On a brand new cd with a good quality cd-player you wont notice, but from there on things can go quickly downhill. As a matter of fact I'm thinking about doing a perfect copy (!) to take the load of my cd player's C-circuit. That's just fu*ked up in my book.
 
Greatly reduced? How so? Each packet of data has its own 4bit ECC (error check and correction). Each packet of audio is ~1100 samples or about .013 seconds. These hard errors are introduced by intentionally fubaring the ECC and forcing the CD to interpolate. Assuming you don't have a real hard error on either side, you'll have no problem--cd chipsets these day and age have plenty of anti-shock protection.

If you do have a hard error on one side or the other, then it likely doesn't matter that they've fiddled with one of the sectors anyways.

But I agree, its sucks. Go blame all the dipshits who like to think they deserve free music.
 
LeStoffer said:
Joe, I have to disagree strongly here because I totally accept that the record business adds copy protection if it doesn't do so by doing damage to the product - the art form, the music - that I buy.

LeStoffer,

As I said, I understand the frustration here. Look at the problem from the other perspective: The companies selling the product don't really care if copies are made either....as long as it doesn't take away from sales of their product.

So you want the music in it's "purest" form? That's a legitimate request. But how much are you willing to pay for it? On one hand, do you demand pristine sound, and on the other, would complain about possibly paying $50 a CD for it?

You should ask yourself as a consumer whether it is really okay for you to be forced to buy a product that is damaged in order to make sure you can't reproduce an [otherwise] good copy of it.

That's the kicker. You as a consumer are not forced to buy anything. If you don't like the quality of the product, vote with your wallet and don't buy it.
 
RussSchultz said:
Greatly reduced? How so? Each packet of data has its own 4bit ECC (error check and correction). Each packet of audio is ~1100 samples or about .013 seconds. These hard errors are introduced by intentionally fubaring the ECC and forcing the CD to interpolate. Assuming you don't have a real hard error on either side, you'll have no problem--cd chipsets these day and age have plenty of anti-shock protection.

If you do have a hard error on one side or the other, then it likely doesn't matter that they've fiddled with one of the sectors anyways.

But I agree, its sucks. Go blame all the dipshits who like to think they deserve free music.

Fair points, Russ. I have no problem accepting that you know more about error correction abilities than me ;) , but I actually experienced a skip on my new Massive Attack just because of a very vague dirt/fingerprint. It doesn't happen on the cd's that doesn't have copy protection for me, so you can see why I fear for the future.
 
Joe DeFuria said:
That's the kicker. You as a consumer are not forced to buy anything. If you don't like the quality of the product, vote with your wallet and don't buy it.

What? Should I instead just download two of the best albums this year in MP3 quality from some obscure corner of the Internet to fight the record business? ;)
 
Oh BTW, I almost forgot:

In Denmark it is legal (yes, it is stated directly in a law!) to copy a music cd that you have bought or borrowed from a friend or library. You can even play this copy at a party or at the office.

You are also allowed to crack a copy protection if you can't otherwise play it. You are not, however, allowed just to crack to copy protection in order the make a copy (that was otherwise legal to make).

At least in Denmark this compromise was made by putting a large tax on CD-R's that go the artist as compensation.
 
LeStoffer said:
What? Should I instead just download two of the best albums this year in MP3 quality from some obscure corner of the Internet to fight the record business? ;)

Seriously, I'm telling you that if you don't like the quality of the "two best albums this year" on CD....then don't buy them (or download them) at all.

Yes, that means you can't play them yourself. Yes, that sucks.

But you probably can't afford a new Ferrari either. (That sucks too!)
 
LeStoffer said:
At least in Denmark this compromise was made by putting a large tax on CD-R's that go the artist as compensation.

Man, if that's true, then Denmark is really f'd up!

If "the artists" want more compensation, the answer is simple: they should produce and distribute their own music. No middle man that they complain about so much.

Don't tax me on CD-Rs for musicians...when I don't buy CD-Rs to copy music.
 
Joe DeFuria said:
Man, if that's true, then Denmark is really f'd up!

If "the artists" want more compensation, the answer is simple: they should produce and distribute their own music. No middle man that they complain about so much.

Don't tax me on CD-Rs for musicians...when I don't buy CD-Rs to copy music.

Joe, I'm sorry to info you that I'm not kidding a bit. :cry:

In 2003 this special tax is 4,17 Danish kroner for each cd-r 74 min media - that's 0.66 dollar or 0.56 Euro each.

Add to this that my CD/MP3 portable player can't play the copy protected audio cd's - and you can see why I'm overall getting fairly fed up with all this crap.
 
I copy all my cds . I have 2 copys of each cd i own . One for my car and one for my house and i never use the original cd except to copy. I don't think this is illegal as i never give my cds out to people nor do i put it on the web for people to download. I just lost to many cds to my car (scratching them while hitting bumps , cd player scratching them) and i don't make enough to keep replacing them. Its also my legal right to back up any info i own. Computer games , cds , dvds. Saying this . I'm very pissed off at this copy protection. They really need to find out a way that you can only make a fixed number of copys .
 
jvd said:
I copy all my cds . I have 2 copys of each cd i own . One for my car and one for my house and i never use the original cd except to copy. I don't think this is illegal as i never give my cds out to people nor do i put it on the web for people to download. I just lost to many cds to my car (scratching them while hitting bumps , cd player scratching them) and i don't make enough to keep replacing them. Its also my legal right to back up any info i own. Computer games , cds , dvds. Saying this . I'm very pissed off at this copy protection. They really need to find out a way that you can only make a fixed number of copys .
laugh, your legal right, where do you live? in china? you have no legal right to copy if you live anywhere where RIAA/MPAA (or their equivalent) has any say.
Im actually quite frustrated at all this nonse, both from the pirates to the companies that produce/distribute, to the musicians, to lawmakers. Its getting quite silly. There seems (to me at least) to be some simple solutions to this problem:

-make music cheaper to buy.
-dont force the consumer to buy 13 tracks when only 1 or 2 are worth buying.
-dont put copy restriction on cds
-allow backup copies to be made (in case of damage)
-give more money to musicians.
-make buying online music easier (kudos to apple for getting ball rolling)
-shorter copyright time limits. (did you know that RIAA was going after summer camps, where children attend, who did not pay them money for singing songs around a camp fire. If your for supporting copyright laws and giving money to their rightfull owners, then everytime you sing "Happy birthday" than you should give some corporation some money as that song is copyrighted and you sang it without permission. Sounds fair doesnt it? :rolleyes:

Now I know what I have suggested will probably never happen, but thats why I have started to boycott buying music, movies. It has been really hard not getting some cd or dvd but hey I dont want to support the cartel anymore.

later,
 
Copy protection for audio CDs is probably the most stupid idea anyone in the recording industry ever had. It simply does not work. On the one hand, it pisses off those who paid for the CD because they can't easily make a copy for their car / mp3 player or a backup copy, or maybe they don't have a stand-alone CD player (like me) and their DVD player/PC refuses to play it.
And on the other hand, those who really want to pirate the CD can still do it with the right CD-ROM drive or by doing a near-1:1 copy with a digital audio cable. And no copy protection mechanism is ever going to prevent this.
 
LeStoffer:
How is that Plexter Premium drive of yours? I am considering to buy a new CD-ROM for nothing less than perfect audio extraction. My currect drive scored a 10/10 for nero DAE test but there's a good cd of mine (Empire Strikes Back OST disk II) that simply is unreadable toward the end. This disc plays perfect on all my cd players (including my PS2) so I think it's an interpolation issue. My question is, do all Plexter burners have this option? I would like the drive to read audio-CDs like redbook players so I can get good extraction. How much was your drive btw? Thanks. :)
 
JF_Aidan_Pryde said:
LeStoffer:
How is that Plexter Premium drive of yours? I am considering to buy a new CD-ROM for nothing less than perfect audio extraction. My currect drive scored a 10/10 for nero DAE test but there's a good cd of mine (Empire Strikes Back OST disk II) that simply is unreadable toward the end. This disc plays perfect on all my cd players (including my PS2) so I think it's an interpolation issue. My question is, do all Plexter burners have this option? I would like the drive to read audio-CDs like redbook players so I can get good extraction. How much was your drive btw? Thanks. :)

The Plextor Premium has been great so far. Plextor drives is generally very good at audio extraction and really shine when used with the Plextools. Plextools let you set 5 levels of error correction on DAE where the lowest is just a simple read but ignore trying to correct errors.

Anyway, here is a couple of good reviews:

http://www.cdfreaks.com/article/112

http://www.cdrlabs.com/reviews/index.php?reviewid=185

http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Art...ptorite+CW5201+&+Plextor+Premium)&index=0

The last one from cdrinfo goes in depth with it's DAE abilities.

The drive cost me 140 Euro here in Denmark which is almost twice to price of good drives with LiteOn.
 
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