Gears of War 12min Xboxyde

[TurnDragoZeroV2G]

Halo 2 made pretty extensive use of lightmaps. "there's no use in recalculating everything for lighting that never changes!" Kinda doubt that philosophy is going to disappear for Halo 3. I think it's also mentioned that alot of the placeholder lighting in the game right now has been simple lightmapping/simple dynamic lighting as opposed to better lightmapping/their new dynamic lighting stuff.

The art is what makes me like GoW better than Halo 3 at the moment.

 

[Subtlesnake]

Epic have said they're not using lightmaps:

All lighting is supported 100% dynamically. There is no static global illumination pass generating lightmaps, because those techniques don't scale well to per-pixel shadowed diffuse and specular lighting.

http://www.beyond3d.com/interviews/sweeneyue3/index.php?p=2

lightmaps are usually static (used since around quake2 ie quite old)
the problem are with lightmaps
A/ the light cant move, thus u can stand in a level for 1/2 hour yet the sun wont move a single degree across the heaven

And that significantly affects your gaming experience?

B/ the environment cant be destructed, eg else u will have disual problems where a wall is still casting a shadow on the ground even though youve blown it up, solution - u cant blow up the wall, thus its a major gameplay limitation

Game environments will always limit what can destroyed, for both technical and artistic reasons. GoW has plenty of destructible cover, and I believe we've already seen walls being destroyed. If they want something to be destroyable they simply use dynamic lighting.

C/ different quality shadows eg watch the gears of war videos, a player casts a much different shadow to objects in the scene, theres parts where a player is standing next to a wall casting a shadow yet the wall aint!!,

I'd like to see evidence of this, but in any case, the only difference is the softness of the shadow and I think having some shadow inconsistencies is an acceptable trade-off for better performance and better quality lighting. Do you really think GoW would look better with hard-edged stencil shadows on everything?

 

[zed]

zed, how do you know they're using lightmaps exclusively in GoW? Do you have a reference?

- dont know for sure, it looks like it, one thing though that is certain is the lighting model is not unified, as always i can show pictures of this if required to prove my case

Lightmaps also allow for GI shading for very realistic scenery. There's no alternative other than flat dynamic lighting which makes everything look computer generated and ruins convincing composition.

try this http://jmb.mine.nu/?p=proj&pid=8
true its a simplistic scene, but still seems to run >100fps on my machine. stick in 100x the polygon count give it to cell + im sure it will still hit 100fps (this is the future as i mentioned a while ago in the cell thread here, what u want cell to do graphics wise, i said handle the shading, imagine playing (latest hit game) with shading of this quality )

Art is a major aspect of "best graphics". You can do some snazzy realtime raytracing and radiosity and have an austhetically poor game.

there in lies the rub
beauty is in the eye of the beholder, what is good art may look crap to someone else, case in point some ppl find this better graphics than gears of war

are they wrong?

thus u cant acuratly decide whats the best graphics when u include that factor cause every person has different ideas of beauty.

but all is not lost,
what u can accuratly judge though is the engines graphical techniques + rate those as the 'best graphics ever'

Epic have said they're not using lightmaps:
All lighting is supported 100% dynamically. There is no static global illumination pass generating lightmaps, because those techniques don't scale well to per-pixel shadowed diffuse and specular lighting.

that interview seems to be a couple of years ago, im guessing thats what they wanted (unified) + performance surferred thus had to resort to lightmaps (which makes my case of not best graphics ever more strong)

I'd like to see evidence of this, but in any case, the only difference is the softness of the shadow and I think having some shadow inconsistencies is an acceptable trade-off for better performance and better quality lighting. Do you really think GoW would look better with hard-edged stencil shadows on everything?

http://www.zedzeek.com/junk/gears.jpg
notice the main characters shadows, easy to see defined
not look at the senery, skeletons, blocks
if they were using a unified model u would be seeing shadows there as well
btw dynamic shadows dont need to be hardedged stencil shadows

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Unified lighting doesn't reqiure unified shadows. Understand the difference?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

try this http://jmb.mine.nu/?p=proj&pid=8
true its a simplistic scene, but still seems to run >100fps on my machine. stick in 100x the polygon count give it to cell + im sure it will still hit 100fps (this is the future as i mentioned a while ago in the cell thread here, what u want cell to do graphics wise, i said handle the shading, imagine playing (latest hit game) with shading of this quality )

That's ambient occlusion. When PSP launched there was a demo of a sort of 'city' made of blocks with realtime lighting like this. But it doesn't work with complicated scenes! You haven't been following the numerous realtime GI solution threads that have cropped up. It might be a case that in a year or three's time, some workarounds manage to get convincing results with complex models and scenes, but at the moment it isn't viable. No other game is managing GI in realtime, so why should GeoW?

I think you've set your sights far too high, especially for the time being. It'd be great to have realtime GI class dynamic lighting, but it's not happening any time soon. The only other options are clever workarounds using baked precomputed lightmaps or multiple lightsources, and neither looks as realistic by a long stretch.

 

[El Leone]

I've noticed that you're using pictures from the E32006 version of GOW....Now I'm not saying the problem has been fixed (because I never looked for it), but the lighting has been chaanged/improved alot since then. Its not as grey.

E32006:http://youtube.com/watch?v=BXMvMRwJ0JA
X06:http://youtube.com/watch?v=GPlWIBlPHgk

Sorry about the youtube and poor quaility, just trying to show you that the lighting has become more.......colorful.

 

[groper]

I've noticed that you're using pictures from the E32006 version of GOW....Now I'm not saying the problem has been fixed (because I never looked for it), but the lighting has been chaanged/improved alot since then. Its not as grey.

Yes , probably the e3 version has placeholder lighting for performance reasons (it runs in one core).
The latest version seems to use GI.

Also i m expecting some kickass real time ambient lighting for the night levels/dasrk areas etc

 

[ultragpu]

have i missed somefin? Gears uses GI like those from the pixar films?

 

[Qroach]

zed I thnk you've made some unfounded and/or needless assumptions about the game. does it matter if the light is dynamic or static? does that affect gameplay?

 

[Laa-Yosh]

As far as I understand the lighting is completely dynamic, but some of the shadowing information is precalculated and thus static, moslty for the enviroment's self-shadowing.

Advanced Dynamic Shadowing. Unreal Engine 3 provides full support for four shadowing techniques:

• Dynamic stencil buffered shadow volumes supporting fully dynamic, moving light sources casting accurate shadows on all objects in the scene.
• Dynamic characters casting dynamic soft shadows on the scene using shadow buffers. Shadow buffer filtering takes samples on a jittered disc that are rotated per-pixel to detect shadow penumbras. Dynamic branching is then used to refine shadow coverage in penumbra regions.
• Ultra high quality and high performance pre-computed shadow masks allow offline processing of static light interactions, while retaining fully dynamic specular lighting and reflections.
• Directional Light Mapping enables the static shadowing and diffuse normal-mapped lighting of an unlimited number of lights to be precomputed and stored into a single set of texture maps, enabling very large light counts in high-performance scenes.

All of the supported shadow techniques are visually compatible and may be mixed freely at the artist's discretion, and may be combined with colored attenuation functions enabling properly shadowed directional, spotlight, and projector lighting effects.

 

[one]

Epic have said they're not using lightmaps:

All lighting is supported 100% dynamically. There is no static global illumination pass generating lightmaps, because those techniques don't scale well to per-pixel shadowed diffuse and specular lighting.

http://www.beyond3d.com/interviews/sweeneyue3/index.php?p=2

Since the interview is about UE3, it seems safe to assume other UE3 games will use the same environmental lighting. What about other UE3 games?

 

[Tap In]

some more recent hands on impressions....

I can not wait to experience this online in 10 days

Here is the feel of rushing on covers. It definitely will not get stale. There are moments in every match where an individual can turn the tide if they are savy enough. You get that sense of opportunity that comes in great multiplayer games where you know that the result of your actions may be a humiliating head shot, or a glorious success that your friends will cheer. The roars you heard in the room all through the evening were a clear indication to me that this game will not get stale. Again, I cannot emphasize this enough. This game will have the effect Halo had on LAN parties, and it will be similar to the effect Halo 2 had on Live.

Here is a nice little feature about the cover system. Remember in Pandora Tomorrow where Sam could move smoothly from one side of a door to the other in a single maneuver. In Gears, if you want to dive from one area of cover to another, it can be done in one well animated ,non-jarring movement. I spoke to the lead on animation about that and he said it took them a lot of effort to pull that off. But is great to see your character dive for cover, smack up against the wall, and grimace.....

Again, in the four hours I was there, I don't think I saw a single match play out the same way. Unlike PDZ, there were no choke points. But Gears has areas if intensity that are never a full-proof locale for one team to hold over the other. You may have an advantage, but a 1-2 man crew can expose any advantage the other team has if they work together. I saw it happen. I made it happen.....

Here is a really cool feature. When you are incapacitated and vulnerable to curbstomping or being "finished", you have to tap the A button to keep your heart beating until a friend comes over and heals you by simply hitting X. So, as you lie there, struggling to hang on for life as the camera fades upwards, you are left tapping A hoping your buddy will come to save you, all the while knowing your enemy is apporaching to finish you off. This mechanic will yield moments in the game where you will see a buddy fall and you will know that unless you hold off the enemy that has just knocked him down, he will die. It creates a sense of urgency and tension that will be felt by victim, teammate, and enemy....

And for those who wanted to know, I asked Cliffy about headshots. When you are standing next to someone when their noggin explodes, you hear the pop and the splatter of brains, bone, and blood...




http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4700373&postcount=614

also took me only one try before I got Active Reloading down pat (and by that I mean perfect reloads)...can't reiterate enough how fun the deathmatches were, despite each round being quick...it was interesting to see how team dynamics play out differently each round since everyone wasn't sticking with the same route and naturally chose different areas to cover...and to think that this was everybody's first time laying their hands on the game.

Had a great deal of playtime in co-op mode (splitscreen) as well....amazingly enough, there was nary a drop in fps and all visual details looked intact. It was such a satisfying experience reviving each other in the few times we were down-but-not-out and the locusts were smart enough to split their assault and take us out with coordinated teamwork......



Returned back to the event yesterday during its public opening and had some quality singleplayer session with Gears. Took my time through the campaign to drool over the insanely detailed textures, lighting...the works. Parts of a stone pillar that looked metallic shined as it should. Plumes from smoke grenades felt volumetic and didn't have visible layers as you walk right through it. Characters's soft self-shadowing are nothing short of technically amazing. Dirt kicks up nicely when you shoot at concrete. Was so awesome to see my AI teammate, Dom, actually creeping up behind a Locust and chainsawing it off in the distance. I went only as far as the first point where Marcus and Dom had to take separate paths before I had leave and meet up with a friend. But up until then it was pure graphical and adrenaline bliss.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4700626&postcount=626

When I played at the Cemetary event in campaign mode there was a moment where I ran out of ammo with both my machine guns and resorted to my pistol. An enemy was storming my position so I stood up, aimed my best and blew. his. entire. head. off. in one shot. It EXPLODED and his body crumpled. One of the most satisfying gaming experiences I can ever remember.

Another time I blew an enemies knees out from under him, as he fell he smacked his head on a piece of cover and then bounced to the ground, looked at me and I filled his chest with lead before he could move. Pure adrenaline and testosterone.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4700808&postcount=629

 

[22psi]

MAN that sounds so fun! I cannot wait. I think GOW will push me to get a 360 finally (and earlier than expected).

 

[zed]

That's ambient occlusion. When PSP launched there was a demo of a sort of 'city' made of blocks with realtime lighting like this.
But it doesn't work with complicated scenes! You haven't been following the numerous realtime GI solution threads that have cropped up.

- your assertion was 'There's no alternative other than flat dynamic lighting' which this shading isnt
also have been following GI stuff its one of my pet loves, heres a link to my first radiosity thing http://www.flipcode.com/cgi-bin/fcarticles.cgi?show=63153

It might be a case that in a year or three's time, some workarounds manage to get convincing results with complex models and scenes,
but at the moment it isn't viable. No other game is managing GI in realtime, so why should GeoW?

- i never said geow had to have GI, i've talked about unified lighting, which already released games have done + many more soon to come (so its certinly not impossible)

The latest version seems to use GI.

- no

zed I thnk you've made some unfounded and/or needless assumptions about the game. does it matter if the light is dynamic or static? does that affect gameplay?

- it is a limitation, since objects cant be moved / destoyed etc, btw whats with all these convenient marble blocks that seem to be lying all over the place. engine limitations are not good no matter what the spin put on them

reconcile the following 2 statements about geow (they both cant be correct)

A/ As far as I understand the lighting is completely dynamic, but some of the shadowing information is precalculated and thus static, moslty for the enviroment's self-shadowing.
B/ All lighting is supported 100% dynamically. There is no static global illumination pass generating lightmaps, because those techniques don't scale well to per-pixel shadowed diffuse and specular lighting.

i believe A is the method theyre doing.

 

[Sankari]

cool feature. When you are incapacitated and vulnerable to curbstomping or being "finished", you have to tap the A button to keep your heart beating until a friend comes over and heals you by simply hitting X. So, as you lie there, struggling to hang on for life as the camera fades upwards, you are left tapping A hoping your buddy will come to save you, all the while knowing your enemy is apporaching to finish you off. This mechanic will yield moments in the game where you will see a buddy fall and you will know that unless you hold off the enemy that has just knocked him down, he will die. It creates a sense of urgency and tension that will be felt by victim, teammate, and enemy....

Thats a nice feature, but it could also add frustration.

 

[czekon]

looking at the guy with green shirt it must be funny as hell to play GeOW

 

[Tap In]

Thats a nice feature, but it could also add frustration.

I agree.... it will be frustrating to get "finished" while you're laying there, but alternatively, the better you get the more rewarding it will be to, more often than not, finish the other guy before he is revived.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

- your assertion was 'There's no alternative other than flat dynamic lighting' which this shading isnt
also have been following GI stuff its one of my pet loves, heres a link to my first radiosity thing http://www.flipcode.com/cgi-bin/fcarticles.cgi?show=63153

And I stand by that assertion. You can't do GI in realtime (at the moment). If you want GI class illumination in game, you need precomputed lightmaps, which means you need static geometry that can't be moved. AFAIK there isn't one game out there doing realtime radiosity. Consider this pic...
http://uk.media.xbox360.ign.com/media/747/747891/img_4024840.html
...The archictural shading there won't be being calculated in realtime so that you can smash up the scenery or dynamically influence the shadows. The best you can hope for is some dynamic lightmapping or AO-type engine but that's not going to scale as large as you want it.

- i never said geow had to have GI, i've talked about unified lighting, which already released games have done + many more soon to come (so its certinly not impossible)

But they don't look as good

I don't know why you're going on about a unified lighting model. One reason for using different lighting models for characters and scenery is because the requirements are different. Switching to one lighting model for all things is mostly going to add to the work you need to do while producing worse looking results. The same differentiated method is used in top-end CGs. Sometimes you use an intensive lighting/shading method for some components of a scene, and simpler, faster methods for other components.

Again, if there is a method by which GeoW could be rendered with dynamic scenery and yet maintain the convincing GI shadowing, why isn't that method in use anywhere else? It may well happen one day, but expecting it of GeoW this early into a new hardware generation is...'overly optimistic.'

 

[groper]

looking at the guy with green shirt it must be funny as hell to play GeOW
http://media.teamxbox.com/events/gallery/49/1161993994.jpg

 

[zed]

But they don't look as good

incorrect they look better

u are forgetting one (bono's ego sized) detail
GI with lightmaps is correct on one + only one condition

that all lights are static + all models are static!