Game design choices that annoy you

[obonicus]

Yeah, what do you do when reality itself isn't as gender-neutral as we think it ought to be?

It's not like games are based in reality in the first place, though, so my point is that if you want to make a game with 'realistic' gender roles AND make female characters not the gimp choice, I have no idea how you'd proceed. If you don't think female characters should be an appealing choice at all, then I suppose it's moot.

 

[Mobius1aic]

You sound like a Trekkie explaining why Star Trek is logical and scientific, while Star Wars is a bunch of silly nonsense that no one should take seriously.



Yeah, what do you do when reality itself isn't as gender-neutral as we think it ought to be?

Two very different Sci-Fi series. Plus you have to mindful that many of our everyday lives involve technology that was conceptualized in very "unrealistic" settings such as cinema and TV.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned already

- Inventory items that don't stack. I'm playing Dead Rising, which is an extreme love hate relationship, and one thing that really bugs me is the guns. I'm carrying two sniper rifles because the idiot is too stupid to take the bullets out of one. You know, why carry one sniper rifle when you can carry two, and use up an entire inventory slot?

- Auto-kill and massive scew-over attacks. Here's another Dead Rising issue. Those damned cultists blowing their sleeping dust on you which takes away your ENTIRE inventory after they capture you. Basically it's an automatic reload point for me.

I'm sure there's a laundry list of complaints I can make about Dead Rising, but they're maybe not appropriate here because they seem to be issues specific to that game, and not applicable elsewhere. The amount of annoying design choices is astounding, but I can burn a zombies face with a heated frying pan, so it's a wash in the end.

 

[AlNom]

- Inventory items that don't stack. I'm playing Dead Rising, which is an extreme love hate relationship, and one thing that really bugs me is the guns. I'm carrying two sniper rifles because the idiot is too stupid to take the bullets out of one. You know, why carry one sniper rifle when you can carry two, and use up an entire inventory slot?

mm... similar issues are in Mass Effect too. There are just a multitude of items with differing levels and such, but it's a pain in the ass to scroll through up to 150 items that aren't even sorted in any meaningful way - even a simple alphabetized ordering isn't available. It's a chore to memorize what items are further up the list and then further down the list, and then... oh wait! FORGOTTEN!

So in short - poor inventory management - Stacking plus sorting options are a must.

 

[Scott_Arm]

mm... similar issues are in Mass Effect too. There are just a multitude of items with differing levels and such, but it's a pain in the ass to scroll through up to 150 items that aren't even sorted in any meaningful way - even a simple alphabetized ordering isn't available. It's a chore to memorize what items are further up the list and then further down the list, and then... oh wait! FORGOTTEN!

So in short - poor inventory management - Stacking plus sorting options are a must.

At least in Dead Rising you only carry up to 12 items and when you start the game you can only carry 4 or 5? But that's kind of the problem with items don't stack. You don't have any room to play with.

 

[Mobius1aic]

Well I got another one today after playing some Crysis online (the Power Struggle Mode). While I like the mode, the balance of the aircraft is terrible. Anyone with a Chopper or VTOL has pretty much free reign to rack up kill after kill which leads to my other pet peeve: unrealistic helicopter controls. By making them unrealistic, it's easy to turn that sucker around and score kill after kill, unlike BF2 where you earn your degree in chopper operation lunacy.

 

[fearsomepirate]

Two very different Sci-Fi series. Plus you have to mindful that many of our everyday lives involve technology that was conceptualized in very "unrealistic" settings such as cinema and TV.

You totally missed the point of analogy, which is that the "technology" in both Star Wars and Star Trek is totally made up fantasy not based in real science, yet people who immerse themselves too deeply in the fantasy world can convince themselves it's feasible to the point of getting in these sneering arguments about how silly and made-up the other fantasy series is, because their favorite is somehow "realistic." Seriously. Listen to a Star Trek fan argue with a Star Wars fan about whether warp drive is more realistic than hyperdrive.

In this case, things like Metal Gear Rex, Gundams, flying cities, superpowered exoskeletons, etc that appear in Japanese exoskeletons are just as stylized and fantastical as their American counterparts. Good fantasy design should circumvent your disbelief and convince you it could happen, but that doesn't mean it's can't still be totally infeasible or impractical. The problem is when you immerse yourself so deeply in the fantasy that you convince yourself that what you see in video games is real design, and then you just end up saying ridiculous things, like Grey Fox's exoskeleton is way, way more realistic than any of that silly Warhammer stuff. Any real engineer could tear just about anything you see in a video game to shreds.

 

[Mobius1aic]

True but in a game like MGS part of the immersion is the information on how things work, especially in the context of weaknesses. Let's take another game for instance: Crysis. Many of the mechanical designs are totally made up in that, yet for that game they make plenty of sense even if they were made to fit in with the world for gameplay's sake. The SCAR rifle isn't a real rifle in the game (or of that particular design). The true SCAR rifle doesn't have a rail iron sight and has a shorter barrel. However a rail iron sight makes sense for the fictionalized version of the gun (rail sights are great for short range targeting), and the lengthened barrel works for a strength enhanced suit that can stand up to the amount of extra force the round will exert during the longer trip out the barrel, as well as many of the attachments. Basically this is my thought on mechanical design: if it seems well thought out, as well as looks good and works for the game, it's good design hence my heavy critiquing on American mechanical designers. I remember the mech walker in Quake 4. It looked ugly and made no real sense. It was essentially a walking wall with lots of guns and missiles.

Call me a nerd if you want for analyzing games and what not, but it's just part of who I am. My father is a retired US Marine, and he'd point out issues in movies involving military hardware and whether or not that is correct model of UH-1 Huey in a movie about Vietnam during that time period. I'm the same way with games. It's fun to get involved with a story thats not only compelling because of the characters, but the action, the technology and how it fits with the universe. MGS isn't perfect either. Specifically MGS3 and the Shagohad. From a practical point of view it made no sense as a nuclear launch platform considering long range ballistic missiles on mobile launchers were on their way and the Shagohad's requirements as an effective platform. Also the WiGs (Wing-in Ground effect craft) were portrayed falsely, and treated as normal airplanes (maybe that particular WiG or "Ekranoplane" was capable of flight as well as ground effect, I'm not to sure). Maybe to the normal user it's not important, but I do appreciate some intelligence thank you very much instead of a random multi-barrel shotgun held by some crazy looking space Marine. So yes I can tear games to shreds too because I have the engineering mentality. You'd be quite surprised at how well I understand mechanical design in particular aircraft.

 

[Nesh]

. Also the WiGs (Wing-in Ground effect craft) were portrayed falsely, and treated as normal airplanes (maybe that particular WiG or "Ekranoplane" was capable of flight as well as ground effect, I'm not to sure). Maybe to the normal user it's not important, but I do appreciate some intelligence thank you very much instead of a random multi-barrel shotgun held by some crazy looking space Marine. So yes I can tear games to shreds too because I have the engineering mentality. You'd be quite surprised at how well I understand mechanical design in particular aircraft.

Just out of curiosity which were the WiGs in MGS and what was portrayed falsely? I cant remember. Just asking out of curiosity and willing to learn

 

[fearsomepirate]

There's nothing specifically "American" about anything you said. Isn't Crysis an American game? Giant gundams with laser swords are 100% Japanese and 100% unrealistic. And since we're talking about it, MGS didn't ever short-circuit my disbelief. Every piece of pseudotechnology in the game was too absurd, especially the giant walking tank (I was dumbstruck that this was supposed to be the military's ace in the hole--besides walkers having severe disadvantages in size, efficiency, and speed, subs have a greater area of operations, are less detectable, and can launch bigger missiles than Rex), although the cyborg ninja suit definitely outranked it in the silliness department. But hey, DARPA's funded some really goofy things before.

Come to think of it, outside of Gran Turismo, I can't really think of any games where the pseudodesign consistently made a lot of sense. Anything realistic is generally already in the real world, or something very close to it (like the SCAR rifle with a rail sight).

 

[Rodéric]

We are a bit far from game design issues IMO.

The most annoying things are lack of decision, of decision that have no effect on the game whatsoever.
That includes conversation choices, and skills which are useless, in other things.

Artificial difficulty by not allowing to save except at some points, that's really annoying, and I don't remember any game for which it benefited the player.

 

[_phil_]

Very good points Mobius1aic .Essence of Design is function.every people with some Design background can be really shocked by empty stylistical decisions.I am too (bald space marine cliché and so on,everythink Epic does,..)

A real mechanical designer ,undestanding engineering is really a big plus.
I thought only kojima had that profile in the team,now what you say about Crysis makes sense ,it fits their taste for some excellence in general design approach.

 

[Mobius1aic]

Just out of curiosity which were the WiGs in MGS and what was portrayed falsely? I cant remember. Just asking out of curiosity and willing to learn

The craft that was rolled over on the runway by the Shagohad as well as the craft Eva and Snake escaped with. I'm not too sure about that particular model of WiG, but WiGs or "Ekranoplanes" that worked by basically floating on a cushion of air between the "wings" and the ground. Effectively their operation was limited to water, but because of the nature of usage, they could built extremely massively, and because they rode a cushion of air, no friction with the ground, hence extremely high speeds. Basically they typically look like planes with short stubby wings, but the Russians and Soviet Union made huge strides with the technology during the Cold War, but never placing them in full military service. Despite the advantages of the idea, they would be plagued by being limited to over-ocean operation (which did make them a very good high speed anti-ship platform as well as search and rescue), however I should note that the largest WiG ever built was over 100 meters longs, larger than the largest airplane in the world, the An-225, and effectively called by military analysts in the west the "Caspian Sea Monster" for it's immense dimensions. Like I said the model in MGS3 was probably a WiG made for both ground effect operation as well as normal flight when it became necessary to fly over land and other ekranoplane designs also seem to reflect that notion as well. I just kinda wish they would'a addressed that in MGS3

"Caspian Sea Monster"

In this picture collection, the model right below known as "Bartini" is the model present in MGS3. Not to much information out there about this particular one, but I'd imagine it's multi-usage as plane and WiG would be attributed to it's large wingspan, considering the middle area of the craft would only be truly effective for ground effect, the wing would just produce lift like an airplane (and therefore drag for an ekranoplane) leaving me to believe it was a multi-use craft as portrayed in MGS3.

 

[deepbrown]

There's nothing specifically "American" about anything you said. Isn't Crysis an American game? Giant gundams with laser swords are 100% Japanese and 100% unrealistic. And since we're talking about it, MGS didn't ever short-circuit my disbelief. Every piece of pseudotechnology in the game was too absurd, especially the giant walking tank (I was dumbstruck that this was supposed to be the military's ace in the hole--besides walkers having severe disadvantages in size, efficiency, and speed, subs have a greater area of operations, are less detectable, and can launch bigger missiles than Rex), although the cyborg ninja suit definitely outranked it in the silliness department. But hey, DARPA's funded some really goofy things before.

Come to think of it, outside of Gran Turismo, I can't really think of any games where the pseudodesign consistently made a lot of sense. Anything realistic is generally already in the real world, or something very close to it (like the SCAR rifle with a rail sight).

DARPA funded this: http://www.ripten.com/2008/06/11/real-world-metal-gear/

We'll see what happens They said you couldn't travel faster than the speed of sound...they were wrong. They say you can't travel than the speed of light...Einstein's wrong We'll have walking tanks one day.

 

[Mobius1aic]

Did a bit more research into the Bartinin Ekranoplane design. I think it was meant to be a testing platform for comparing both ekranoplane characteristics and normal aircraft capabilities and yes the Bartini could fly like a normal airplane but since it was a test platform, it's "production status" in MGS3 was mistaken in it's portrayal, it was a research aircraft

Now, back to our issues of exsoskeletons. Let's take artificial muscle fibers for instance. Yes these are being researched. Apply an electrical charge and the fibers contract. Now let's compare a "muscle suit" and a frame style "exoskeleton" which do exist as of right now. A muscle suit is just that: it's a suit that can easily be put on, as well as being malable, storable, and portable. There are no extremely exact measurements that are required to have a well fitting system because the human body provides the frame. For a frame style system though, mismeasurement tolerances are much stricter, however the addition of a frame does assist the nature skeleton of the body in holding and standing up to higher loads. MGS makes an interesting fictional case, because the capabilities of the suit are way beyond what a human could stand (then again Grey Fox was a cyborg, not just a body in a suit) especially in the sequence where his suit and body manage to stand up to a the weight of a metal gear on top of him. Unless there was an underlying miracle of a frame system, it's totally unrealistic but it made for good a good cutscene though, which was the whole point. Frankly the muscle suit would be better for most operations considering soldiers do carry upwards of 100 pounds into combat quite often, but frames would be good for other purposes off the frontlines such as cargo loading an other very civilian related things. Hmm we also have nanomachines which are under current research. Programmable viruses probably have been researched as well, and the bit about the "dog" robot made to help soldiers carry equipment is a very cool idea and very practical. It may not be giant, but it's a small scale application to what could lead to larger machines that would quite effective in the construction industry that still relies on cables and pulleys to lift large loads and depend on human hands to tweak the loads into place such as I-beams. I still hold my belief that small light mech like vehicles would be very effective in urban areas, something in the area of 15-20 ft tall. Unlike a tank, a walking machine could step over an IED make better use of large buildings for cover, as well as view over buildings possibly unlike a lumbering tank. This kind of manueverability automatically gives it a huge advantage as an urban weapon with soldiers and APCs to back it up like a tank. Tanks were meant for large open battlefields and not to be confined.

And on the notion of faster-than-light travel, I think we won't achieve it but there is a possible work around: the space fold a la Macross.

 

[Ninjaprime]

DARPA funded this: http://www.ripten.com/2008/06/11/real-world-metal-gear/

We'll see what happens They said you couldn't travel faster than the speed of sound...they were wrong. They say you can't travel than the speed of light...Einstein's wrong We'll have walking tanks one day.

Those are different sort of problems though.

The problem of a walking tank isn't if we can do it, its why do it? If its not better/faster/more efficent than tracked/wheeled, why do it? The reason for going faster than sounds is obvious, to get places faster. Same with light. With a tank... why make it walk? Doesn't make any sense.

Back on the topic, I have to second the bad/unrealistic AI complaint. It only gets worse as the realistic-ness of graphics/sound/phsyics goes up. Take Oblivion for example. I swear the AI feels less realistic than Morrowind did to me, but its probably just as good or better. Its just the world looks and feels so much more real, that when the people who look real animate badly and act like brainless zombies, you feel even more detatched from the reality of the game.

 

[Ninjaprime]

... I still hold my belief that small light mech like vehicles would be very effective in urban areas, something in the area of 15-20 ft tall. Unlike a tank, a walking machine could step over an IED make better use of large buildings for cover, as well as view over buildings possibly unlike a lumbering tank. This kind of manueverability automatically gives it a huge advantage as an urban weapon with soldiers and APCs to back it up like a tank. Tanks were meant for large open battlefields and not to be confined.

A mech has obvious glaring vulnerablities because of its method of movement, nothing can really overcome that, other than hollywood magic.

 

[deepbrown]

Those are different sort of problems though.

The problem of a walking tank isn't if we can do it, its why do it? If its not better/faster/more efficent than tracked/wheeled, why do it? The reason for going faster than sounds is obvious, to get places faster. Same with light. With a tank... why make it walk? Doesn't make any sense.

Back on the topic, I have to second the bad/unrealistic AI complaint. It only gets worse as the realistic-ness of graphics/sound/phsyics goes up. Take Oblivion for example. I swear the AI feels less realistic than Morrowind did to me, but its probably just as good or better. Its just the world looks and feels so much more real, that when the people who look real animate badly and act like brainless zombies, you feel even more detatched from the reality of the game.

But there are advantages...that's why DARPA is funding walking robot projects like the one I showed. You can see the advantages of Gekko's in a built up area can't you

 

[Ninjaprime]

But there are advantages...that's why DARPA is funding walking robot projects like the one I showed. You can see the advantages of Gekko's in a built up area can't you

A four legged robot, maybe, but then again, DARPA funds a lot of crazy crap that never goes anywhere too.

Tell me, where has the Big Dog shown it can go that a good 4 wheeler cant? And for how much money per unit?

 

[Cheezdoodles]

I hate the current effort to push replayability as a cover for a relatively short or uninspiring initial single player experience.

I don't like the ideal of trying to turn a underwhelming 8 hours experience into a 16-20 hours grind of running around looking for hidden items just to get an achievement or trying to get an "A" grade on a mission level. Those are all fine and dandy when you have a robust experience but when they are used to make up for a short sp experience I find it disgusting and a waste of $60.00.

If you're going to make a short game then adds things like co-op or multiplayer (prefererably both).

Same here, im not 8 years old, im not amused by running around and looking for hidden objects that do nothing, for me it adds 0 value and 0 replayability.