Forza 5 [XO] *large pics inside*

[Strange]

I did a more complete sample consisting of the full 4 second to 9 second interval

The video camera had 300 samples within this time frame, and the game time did indeed move from 4.000 to 8.944 (last frame is a duplicate).
The video feed is indeed 59.94 fps, so as long as we can identify individual frames from each other (which we should be able to due to Forza 5 being V locked and we have a in-game timer that spits out different values for every single frame), we should be good to rate the game all the way up to 60 fps.

Please point out if there are any flaws, because I don't really see any myself and would appreciate if anybody can pick any part of this apart instead of an encompassing "oh you can't do that" without an explanation.

Here are the 300 frames that I sampled.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0DB02tYXggEU2MxSHE5ZHRjYlk/edit?usp=sharing
4.000 4.017 4.050 4.067 4.083 4.100
4.117 4.133 4.150 4.167 4.183 4.200
4.217 4.233 4.250 4.267 4.283 4.300
4.317 4.333 4.350 4.367 4.383 4.400
4.417 4.433 4.450 4.467 4.483 4.500
4.517 4.533 4.550 4.547 4.583 4.600
4.617 4.633 4.650 4.667 4.667 4.693
4.700 4.700 4.717 4.733 4.733 4.767
4.800 4.817 4.833 4.850 4.867 4.883
4.900 4.917 4.933 4.950 4.967 4.983
5.000 5.017 5.033 5.050 5.067 5.083
5.100 5.117 5.133 5.150 5.167 5.183
5.200 5.217 5.233 5.250 5.267 5.283
5.300 5.317 5.333 5.350 5.367 5.383
5.400 5.417 5.433 5.450 5.467 5.483
5.500 5.517 5.533 5.550 5.567 5.583
5.600 5.617 5.617 5.633 5.633 5.650
5.667 5.667 5.711 5.744 5.761 5.777
5.794 5.811 5.844 5.861 5.877 5.894
5.911 5.927 5.944 5.961 5.977 5.994
6.011 6.027 6.044 6.061 6.077 6.094
6.111 6.147 6.144 6.161 6.177 6.194
6.211 6.227 6.244 6.261 6.277 6.294
6.311 6.327 6.344 6.361 6.377 6.394
6.411 6.427 6.444 6.461 6.477 6.494
6.511 6.527 6.544 6.561 6.577 6.594
6.611 6.627 6.644 6.661 6.677 6.694
6.711 6.724 6.744 6.761 6.777 6.794
6.811 6.827 6.844 6.861 6.877 6.894
6.911 6.927 6.927 6.944 6.961 6.961
6.977 6.994 7.027 7.044 7.061 7.061
7.077 7.094 7.094 7.127 7.127 7.144
7.177 7.211 7.227 7.244 7.244 7.261
7.294 7.311 7.327 7.344 7.361 7.377
7.394 7.427 7.444 7.461 7.477 7.494
7.511 7.511 7.527 7.544 7.561 7.577
7.594 7.611 7.627 7.644 7.661 7.677
7.711 7.727 7.744 7.761 7.777 7.794
7.811 7.827 7.844 7.861 7.877 7.894
7.911 7.927 7.927 7.944 7.961 7.977
7.994 8.011 8.027 8.044 8.061 8.077
8.094 8.111 8.127 8.144 8.161 8.177
8.194 8.211 8.227 8.244 8.261 8.277
8.294 8.311 8.327 8.344 8.361 8.377
8.394 8.411 8.427 8.444 8.461 8.477
8.494 8.511 8.527 8.544 8.561 8.577
8.594 8.611 8.627 8.644 8.661 8.677
8.694 8.711 8.727 8.744 8.761 8.777
8.794 8.811 8.827 8.844 8.861 8.877
8.877 8.894 8.927 8.927 8.944 8.944

300 frames, 17 duplicates
283 distinct frames, with a result of ~ 56.6 frames per second over this 5 second period.

The duplicate frames also do not show up at regular intervals, but rather is quite time-localized.
Combining this with checks on the background, I don't think this can be an artifact from recording this off-screen or an artifact from the video camera itself.

Here's a sample of the duplicate frames, as an example.

 

[RobertR1]

Game looks beautiful. Can't wait to check it out on my TV.

 

[warb]

Looks right to me. There's some of the following frame in your second example image.

 

[AlNom]

What is this supposed to mean? Technical problems are solved via man hours, thus time, they are one and the same are they not?

Baking the lightmaps can take time.

 

[RedVi]

Uh, I don't get it... The camera and screen aren't synced, so sure, every now and then it will capture the same frame on the TV twice. I'm not sure how this points to the game definitely being less than 60FPS at times, although I don't find it unlikely that at this stage it isn't completely smooth.

 

[kots]

Well that is how feature get implemented, by devs. They are claiming it is not technical, well it must be, their lighting engine doesn't support it. They could add features by taking more time or having a bigger team.

This guy (Greenwalt) says the same thing every E3 - "we didn't have enough time to put this feature in" and finds excuses all the time .
I wouldn't believe anything he says .

 

[Nesh]

It's important for me. Forza 4 was the most consistent and balanced racing game of this generation, imho, and running at 60 fps in-game every single second was like a mandatory feature. If Forza 5 dropped a single frame it would be a disappointment.

But would you have noticed if nobody told you its slightly below 60fps?

 

[Strange]

Uh, I don't get it... The camera and screen aren't synced, so sure, every now and then it will capture the same frame on the TV twice. I'm not sure how this points to the game definitely being less than 60FPS at times, although I don't find it unlikely that at this stage it isn't completely smooth.

The camera is recording at 60 fps.

If it captures the same frame on the TV due to being out of sync as the TV working at 60 fps and the video camera working in 66 fps, we can expect the duplicate frames to come at regular intervals, (in this case we would see 1 duplicate frame every 11 frames) and this is not the case. The duplicate frames come at irregular intervals and are pretty localized, pointing to the fact that at those time intervals there's something going on in the screen contributing to a slowdown.

What could happen is that the TV and the video camera are being offset by half a frame and we get a superposition of two frames for every video frame. However, even if this is the case we should not see duplicate frames at all if the game manages to do a perfect 60fps.

The camera records the frames at 60 fps, leaving a maximum shutter time of 16.66 ms for every frame.
If the TV screen and Xbox One console is truly refreshing every frame at 60 fps, every time reading presented will also only be projected at 16.66 ms.
A 16.66 ms screen cannot leave a full imprint on the video camera for two frames given the short shutter time. A duplicate frame with the same clock time points clearly to a frame that's unrefreshed if the video camera is still working.

Every frame should have their fingerprint written on the video equipment, and it's the number of distinct frames that I'm counting within each second that contributes to the total fps number.

Thus, we would expect to obtain a different clock reading on every frame when clock readings are relatively clear if the game truly refreshes at 60fps.

I know this is not the preferred method and all, but due to lacking raw feeds, and thinking about it I feel this is a reliable method to test the FPS.

After thinking about it for quite a while, I cannot identify flaws to this method, thus the request for anybody here to try to pick it apart.

 

[warb]

You can see the regular ~16ms intervals on the clock from frames up through the duplicate frames, then the time made up in following frames.

This guy (Greenwalt) says the same thing every E3 - "we didn't have enough time to put this feature in" and finds excuses all the time .
I wouldn't believe anything he says .

He's lying about there not being enough time to include all of the features they'd have liked to?

I knew it.

 

[RudeCurve]

The game looks pretty good but the videos with the same stupid cars are boring. I want to see more interesting cars like the BAC Mono, Nissan Delta Wing etc.

 

[milk]

The camera is recording at 60 fps.

If it captures the same frame on the TV due to being out of sync as the TV working at 60 fps and the video camera working in 66 fps, we can expect the duplicate frames to come at regular intervals, (in this case we would see 1 duplicate frame every 11 frames) and this is not the case. The duplicate frames come at irregular intervals and are pretty localized, pointing to the fact that at those time intervals there's something going on in the screen contributing to a slowdown.

What could happen is that the TV and the video camera are being offset by half a frame and we get a superposition of two frames for every video frame. However, even if this is the case we should not see duplicate frames at all if the game manages to do a perfect 60fps.

The camera records the frames at 60 fps, leaving a maximum shutter time of 16.66 ms for every frame.
If the TV screen and Xbox One console is truly refreshing every frame at 60 fps, every time reading presented will also only be projected at 16.66 ms.
A 16.66 ms screen cannot leave a full imprint on the video camera for two frames given the short shutter time. A duplicate frame with the same clock time points clearly to a frame that's unrefreshed if the video camera is still working.

Every frame should have their fingerprint written on the video equipment, and it's the number of distinct frames that I'm counting within each second that contributes to the total fps number.

Thus, we would expect to obtain a different clock reading on every frame when clock readings are relatively clear if the game truly refreshes at 60fps.

I know this is not the preferred method and all, but due to lacking raw feeds, and thinking about it I feel this is a reliable method to test the FPS.

After thinking about it for quite a while, I cannot identify flaws to this method, thus the request for anybody here to try to pick it apart.

I love when people give thorough explanations. I'm also glad because I was wondering about this myself. And good job with the framerate analysis, very informative!

 

[AlNom]

Just a side thought: Did you isolate the TV screen from the rest of the video? i.e. the real world shouldn't stutter.

 

[BRiT]

Just a side thought: Did you isolate the TV screen from the rest of the video? i.e. the real world shouldn't stutter.

That's what I was thinking too. If the frames are identical including the real world items such as the people playing or in the background then it is Not the game that stuttered and created duplicate frames but the recording device.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

This guy (Greenwalt) says the same thing every E3 - "we didn't have enough time to put this feature in" and finds excuses all the time .
I wouldn't believe anything he says .

Polyphony Digital also never has time to get every feature they want in. The difference in that there is less time between Forza releases than Grand Turismo releases. Hence, it's harder to get X feature in B release. As the generation goes on and the platform remains stable, it's easier to keep adding and improving on the engine for that platform.

Compare Forza 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> Horizons, all on the same platform. Forza 5 is going to be analogous to Forza 2. Things will be added and improved as the generation goes on. I hardly think it's an excuse.

Do you also think it's an excuse when X feature doesn't make it into a Grand Turismo title because of time constraints? I Turn 10 could always just keep delaying the release of the title (ala GT5) to add in more features, but even then just like PD they won't be able to get all the features they want in.

Regards,
SB

 

[kots]

Polyphony Digital also never has time to get every feature they want in. The difference in that there is less time between Forza releases than Grand Turismo releases. Hence, it's harder to get X feature in B release. As the generation goes on and the platform remains stable, it's easier to keep adding and improving on the engine for that platform.
Compare Forza 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> Horizons, all on the same platform. Forza 5 is going to be analogous to Forza 2. Things will be added and improved as the generation goes on. I hardly think it's an excuse.
Do you also think it's an excuse when X feature doesn't make it into a Grand Turismo title because of time constraints? I Turn 10 could always just keep delaying the release of the title (ala GT5) to add in more features, but even then just like PD they won't be able to get all the features they want in.
Regards,
SB

I suppose it's too much to ask for weather and night races , you know , things the competition have .
If it's a time constraint , he must make a stand for his game and demand extra time to polish it , add things and make it better because as it is now , it's just a prettier F4 .

(please let's leave Horizons out , it's a 30fps game) .

 

[Strange]

That's what I was thinking too. If the frames are identical including the real world items such as the people playing or in the background then it is Not the game that stuttered and created duplicate frames but the recording device.

Yes I checked. Other stuff moved every frame, so it wasn't the video camera producing the duplicate frame.. The three frames that I put up also indicate that if you look closely at the guy on the upper right hand corner.

 

[warb]

If you look at the Forza signs and posts on the right in the second image, you can see some of both other frames.

Also the pattern of times on the clock changes after duplicate games frames, to keep time.

 

[BRiT]

Okay, had a better look at the "duplicate frames" and I would not say they are identical.

Here's the differences in those "duplicate frames":

• the road posts on the right
• the road pattern lines on the right
• the wording on the left barrier
• the steering wheel and hands position
• the speed on the speedometer indicator
• the redline rev meter under the speedometer
• the shadow and sun locations on the dash from the rear window

Only the time stamp is identical.

 

[Cyan]

I suppose it's too much to ask for weather and night races , you know , things the competition have .
If it's a time constraint , he must make a stand for his game and demand extra time to polish it , add things and make it better because as it is now , it's just a prettier F4 .

(please let's leave Horizons out , it's a 30fps game) .

A prettier F4 is still one hell of a good game. Dan Greenawalt said that time constraints is the culprit in his The Smoking Tire interview.

In regards to Strange's posts, I love those things but I don't understand the innards so I could make an incorrect use of words if I said what I think.

Nesh, Yeah, it's difficult to notice, but in DF articles they show everything and people fight for things like those. I don't want 5 frames and people's opinions ruin my enthusiasm for the game.

I'm willing to bet they will max out the performance so badly that it is not possible it can run at less than 60 fps -just like FM4-. But man can dream.

 

[kots]

A prettier F4 is still one hell of a good game.

I agree , F4 is great and F5 looks gorgeous . It's stupid to say it doesn't ... but how many times you can play the same track , at the same conditions , at the same time of day ? It gets stale after a while ...

Dan Greenawalt said that time constraints is the culprit in his The Smoking Tire interview.

He's saying it since F3 .