Final Fantasy XV [XO, PS4, PC]

[NThibieroz]

We could change the argument to Gameworks vs what AMD is doing with its own optimised libraries (they may be fully open source but impossible to integrate due to level of development required to change to use on anything but AMD hardware)

GPUOpen Effects come with an open-source MIT license that actually allows optimizations without requiring author approval (unlike the license for those few Gameworks effects that come with source, mandating that modifications are only allowed for the purpose of integration and bug fixing). There is nothing "impossible" about integrating/changing GPUOpen effects to suit the developer's needs.

 

[CSI PC]

GPUOpen Effects come with an open-source MIT license that actually allows optimizations without requiring author approval (unlike the license for those few Gameworks effects that come with source, mandating that modifications are only allowed for the purpose of integration and bug fixing). There is nothing "impossible" about integrating/changing GPUOpen effects to suit the developer's needs.

Name the studios using the modern version of TressFX who were not part of Eidos Montreal (who acquired Crystal Dynamics) or use their Dawn engine that integrates it at more than a middleware solution - Eidos worked closely with AMD in terms of its development to a more advanced and usable solution.

Regarding GPUOpen vs Gameworks; it has been discussed many times before, and like I said GPUOpen is designed for GCN in same way Mantle was; nothing wrong with that but it does affect context.
A context question/perspective; If it is so open source then why are the GPUOpen low level libraries designed for synergy with consoles using AMD components - they have absolutely no use or portability on any other hardware so the point of being open source becomes a context/argument point that skews the debate as open source does not mean ubiqituous solution.
Because it is a technical semantic argument about open source and what technology can be used by different manufacturers, open source is a skewed argument when its solution is solely designed around one hardware requiring substantial resources to fundamentally alter for other architectures designs although it is nice for devs working on the original source platform but not helpful when it needs to work on various manufacturers.

Anyway as I said it is a debate that has happened before and has split perspectives, and importantly separate to this thread but like I said consider TressFX/Purehair (evolution of TressFX) that has only been implemented by a single studio who worked closely with AMD on its evolution and usability giving them an advantage/greater expertise over other studios.
Lets take this to a different thread before it goes well off tangent, in reality both AMD and Nvidia will do what is best for themselves but both have challenges to integrate such advanced functions into an easy but efficient way for devs to use efficiently as a bolt-on solution.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

And this is the main issue with Gameworks. Instead of doing something pretty and at the same time trying to make it as cheap as possible to run, they seem to be focused more on brute forcing expensive effects that can run better on Nvidia hardware. The problem is, even Nvidia hardware has a hard time running Nvidia Gameworks effects, and most of the time people just end up disabling them. With that said, I'm a big fan of VXAO and the PCSS Ultra+ used in Assassin's Creed Syndicate (which pushed shadow LOD extensively). When/if they finally decide to create something that's better for games rather than something that's better for Nvidia PR, Gameworks could be something great for PC games.

Gameworks is also good for punishing NV's own users in an attempt to make them buy more expensive graphics cards.

Why bother optimizing it, when you can make more money by making sure it doesn't run well?

Regards,
SB

 

[Davros]

Square Enix has just announced that it will release a demo for the PC version of Final Fantasy XV prior to its official launch. This demo will feature the first Chapter and will allow players to fully explore the tutorial and opening quests of the game. The demo will be available on Steam, Origin and Windows Store on February 26th!

 

[CSI PC]

It will be interesting if true, but DSO and a few other sites are reporting FF XV main game (no idea about the demo) will not have Denuvo.

 

[Clukos]

Square Enix has just announced that it will release a demo for the PC version of Final Fantasy XV prior to its official launch. This demo will feature the first Chapter and will allow players to fully explore the tutorial and opening quests of the game. The demo will be available on Steam, Origin and Windows Store on February 26th!

It's probably the exact same demo as the one for the console version, it's pretty substantial

It will be interesting if true, but DSO and a few other sites are reporting FF XV main game (no idea about the demo) will not have Denuvo.

They are aiming for full modding support so I guess not including denuvo makes sense. Bethesda did the same thing with Fallout 4 and Skyrim EE iirc.

 

[CSI PC]

It's probably the exact same demo as the one for the console version, it's pretty substantial


They are aiming for full modding support so I guess not including denuvo makes sense. Bethesda did the same thing with Fallout 4 and Skyrim EE iirc.

Yeah but discussions suggest you can still have Denuvo even with modding - some other games use Denuvo and have modding capability but I appreciate one could debate how extensive it can be with Denuvo; look at how Prey has been improved by 3rd party (looks much nicer IMO) and also mods for Total War Warhammer 1 and 2, amongst other games.
Whatever the reason and it could be down to modding or performance/interraction maybe with Gameworks/etc, fingers crossed the game is good to make it worth buying sooner rather than later as I think quite a few would like to show suppport that one does not need Denuvo to protect sales.

 

[Jupiter]

Demo is out:

 

[CSI PC]

Glad it has been confirmed in the demo that Hairworks has been tweaked when compared to Witcher 3 in that the primary characters do not have it but monsters do (and balanced by not all).
Should make it much more viable and looks like a nice game in general for PC from Square Enix with various other improvements.
Also a nice surprise is the price (but will still wait for final game to launch and review before purchasing), which seems to take into account the game has been out on consoles awhile.

 

[Jupiter]

PC vs PlayStation 4 Pro (Tesselation): https://www.resetera.com/threads/fi...dition-demo-thread.25835/page-22#post-5016746

Like I always say: Tesselation is important (see Wildlands, SW BATTLFRONT).

 

[CSI PC]

I wonder if it also has some kind of parallax occlusion mapping advantage as the differences are quite large; look at console vs PC for Kingdom Come Deliverance for its effect and benefit on ground for the PC version when compared to console.

 

[orangpelupa]

The way they made the ground "bumps" are POM or tesselatiin? I'm cinfuconf

 

[Jupiter]

Both are possible but here it's Tessellation which is real 3D and POM looks like 3D from above but it's 2D. Unlike the particle effects Tesselation does not diminish the AMD performance as much here.

I wonder if it also has some kind of parallax occlusion mapping advantage as the differences are quite large; look at console vs PC for Kingdom Come Deliverance for its effect and benefit on ground for the PC version when compared to console.

Have not tested it by myself.

I'm wondering why in KCD POM was not used at all/slightly on consoles because this effect should be fast.

 

[CSI PC]

Well that sucks regarding Denuvo.
Looks like those earlier reports last month were wrong about the game not having Denuvo, seems Square Enix has just updated everything to say it is included, bit naughty to update the EULA with Denuvo on the 2nd March and being so soon to the launch.
On the plus side regarding performance the demo can be compared to the game with Denuvo.

 

[Jupiter]

Denuvo has no Impact on performance. If the performance is different one cannot blame it on Denuvo when comparing beta and full version.
Lastly it was removed by CI Games from Sniper: Ghost Warrior 3 and there was no difference in performance. The differences in loading times were only because they had been improved before.

By the way, Final Fantasy has maybe the best textures for a game with an open world (Star Citizen excluded). It also occupies a lot of VRAM and memory on the hard drive. For me, the average texture quality is one of the biggest shortcoming of AC Origins.

 

[CSI PC]

Denuvo has no Impact on performance. If the performance is different one cannot blame it on Denuvo when comparing beta and full version.
Lastly it was removed by CI Games from Sniper: Ghost Warrior 3 and there was no difference in performance. The differences in loading times were only because they had been improved before.

By the way, Final Fantasy has maybe the best textures for a game with an open world (Star Citizen excluded). It also occupies a lot of VRAM and memory on the hard drive. For me, the average texture quality is one of the biggest shortcoming of AC Origins.

It has never been proven one way or the other, it will have some kind of overhead because it is doing encryption/memory protection, but that overhead may be small or noticable and potentially impacted by certain operations/features, or possibly how many cores/threads are used efficiently or not in many cases.
There just is not enough information out there with regard to Denuvo and all the mechanisms and dependencies it has.

By proof I mean by someone (a professional)/publication who can setup a test reliably and with good methodology.
Is there a link for the source of Ghost Warrior 3 with testing before and after.
Thanks.
Edit:
NVM I assume it was DSO and the game seems to have had fundamental performance problems anyway (so could mask other factors), anyway still would prefer some other publications to do testing that drill into the details-behaviour a bit more.

 

[Jupiter]

The performance difference would not be significant and is therefore irrelevant. There is enough evidence and some developers who patched it out even said that it doesn't make any difference performancewise. At some point the time has come to let a myth die.

 

[Mobius1aic]

To hell with high end features

R9 270 Pleb here. Runs FFXV demo fine at mostly average settings, 1080p, low filtering, ~30 FPS, TAA. Seems analogous to the base PS4 version.

RX 550 runs fine at 1600 x 900 similar settings, though I leave off the ambient occlusion. Got videos if anyone are interested.

 

[CSI PC]

The performance difference would not be significant and is therefore irrelevant. There is enough evidence and some developers who patched it out even said that it doesn't make any difference performancewise. At some point the time has come to let a myth die.

No developer or publisher has made the effort to show any publication the performance comparison for their game with Denuvo truly stripped out and with it in, you have a couple saying it has no perceived performance issue but never state in what context (are they talking about 30fps or 60fps/if minimum-maximum variance or stable framerates/etc)
As an example Ubisoft said the same about the security mechanism used in Assassin's Creed Origins (also using VMProtect in a very intrusive way).

Anyway my point is that testing this game that also has advanced functions would help in the debate longer term regarding Denuvo; that is if Denuvo is actually stripped out of the Demo rather than active but bypasses servers/etc.
So still a bit of uncertainty unfortunately, but all data points help.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

OK, first impressions...

Absolutely crappy port. No proper mouse support in the menus. You're better off using the keyboard to navigate the menus. What is this? The 80's? WTF is wrong with these people? What a pain to mess around with settings.

[edit] Now trying to do keybinds...and WTF? Console-itis here in a big way. Attack and Sprint on the same button? Ugh. Also by default it's the same button as Select and Use. /sigh.

Bad PC port.

It's so surprising as FFXIV has a really great PC version. And then you have this crap.

Regards,
SB