so, what do you think of this? IF BAR is found guilty, has FIA guts to exclude them? and how's the Concorde treaty after that? Concorde Treaty says that ther must be 20 cars in the race, so that in particular race World Champioship points can be given. What will be the two teams to have 3 cars in the grid?
Excluding BAR team from F1 World Championships?
- Thread starter Nappe1
- Start date
so, what do you think of this? IF BAR is found guilty, has FIA guts to exclude them? and how's the Concorde treaty after that? Concorde Treaty says that ther must be 20 cars in the race, so that in particular race World Champioship points can be given. What will be the two teams to have 3 cars in the grid?
It sounds like BAR are on a bit of a sticky wicket with this one - evidently they have an extra fual tank, which they say is an injector, however when both the normal tank and this is drained the car is underweight, which is illegal. BAR ae going to try and have to prove that they always ran with sufficient fluids on board such that the car was at or over the legal minimum during all parts of the race, but then that probably still leaves the legality of the system in the first place. Apparently the speculation is that an ex-BAR team member, now working for another team, tipped off the FIA about the system.
Of course, the irony here is that Button had to go to an arbitration commitee, which the FIA was a part of, that ruled that he couldn't have his way and go to Williams, and he had to drive for BAR this year - ironic if BAR are then excluded after three races.
There is a provision in place that will allow teams to run a third car for the race should the grid fall below 20 entrants, however I believe there is some rule that stipulates only the top two finisihing cars for each team can actually score points. It looks like Button might get his wish afterall, if he can drive a 3rd car for Williams...
Of course, the irony here is that Button had to go to an arbitration commitee, which the FIA was a part of, that ruled that he couldn't have his way and go to Williams, and he had to drive for BAR this year - ironic if BAR are then excluded after three races.
There is a provision in place that will allow teams to run a third car for the race should the grid fall below 20 entrants, however I believe there is some rule that stipulates only the top two finisihing cars for each team can actually score points. It looks like Button might get his wish afterall, if he can drive a 3rd car for Williams...
BAR should not be kicked out. Fined yes but no. I think there are some questionable things always attempted by other teams. I mean look at Ferrari!
Ferrari have been obnoxious when it came to the limit on testing. Just because Schumi (God of F1 btw) is not in winning form because Ferrari was supremely confident their engines would adhere and work fine with the new engine reuse rules in place, and they are not succeeding is no reason for them to find a loophole and test away to their heart's content.
Ferrari have been obnoxious when it came to the limit on testing. Just because Schumi (God of F1 btw) is not in winning form because Ferrari was supremely confident their engines would adhere and work fine with the new engine reuse rules in place, and they are not succeeding is no reason for them to find a loophole and test away to their heart's content.
Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.
Legend
There is also a rule that says you cannot use fuel as ballast. There is some talk that this "extra tank" was a way of getting more weight low down in the car.
If this is found to be illegal, then points should be stripped, but throwing BAR out of the championship when other teams have not had such draconian measures thrown at them for similar offences seems counter productive at a time when F1 needs as many exciting teams and races as possible.
Here's an interesting rundown of events.
If this is found to be illegal, then points should be stripped, but throwing BAR out of the championship when other teams have not had such draconian measures thrown at them for similar offences seems counter productive at a time when F1 needs as many exciting teams and races as possible.
Here's an interesting rundown of events.
So, if I understand the whole situation correctly, is it the right time to Pannick yet?Nappe1 said:
There's such thing as BAR fans?Tahir said:
Now seriously, BAR intentionally did use this other fuel tank as a ballast.
I say intentionally because there's no other, legal, explanation for this.
Why would you have another fuel tank if you cannot let carburant level go lower than a certain point? What would be the point?
Now do they deserve to be exclude for the whole season? That's up to the court, but BAR did, nonetheless, a grave mistake.
F1 =more beaurocratic than Bruxelles
Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.
Legend
Tahir said:
*thats* the problem, they dont have utter clarity with issues.. rather they leave grey areas . supposedly this issue appeared in 94 and there was a memo about, but no clarification in the rules... BAR didnt exist in 94....
BAR allege they're not the only team doing this.
i think the penatly from a spectators standpoint is crap... i think BAR should not be allowed points from races, but button and sato be allowed em.. that way we get more cars in the races, BAR lose pts for construction championship and button/sato dont get penalised (hardly their fault)......
Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.
Legend
I love the way BAR said this extra fuel was needed "for the car to be functional" so they counted it as part of the unfuelled weight of the car. That's funny because I thought all cars needed fuel to be functional. It looks like BAR saw this vagueness in the rules, and decided to exploit it in their favour. If caught, they were probably expecting to be able to get away with it by pointing out this vagueness.
I think the FIA were also pissed because when asked to drain all fuel from the car to be weighed, BAR left the extra fuel in the "injector" and presented the car as drained of fuel to the scrutineers. When the injector was emptied, and the car was actually empty of fuel, it was underweight.
Having said that, there are rumours that other teams are doing the exact same thing. I also read that the FIA were tipped off by a ex-BAR team member that is now working at one of the other teams.
I think the FIA were also pissed because when asked to drain all fuel from the car to be weighed, BAR left the extra fuel in the "injector" and presented the car as drained of fuel to the scrutineers. When the injector was emptied, and the car was actually empty of fuel, it was underweight.
Having said that, there are rumours that other teams are doing the exact same thing. I also read that the FIA were tipped off by a ex-BAR team member that is now working at one of the other teams.
the implication is that the BAR 2nd tank was extremely low in the car, in this position they'd need to pump it out , the claim is they could never get that "last few kgs" of fuel... eg when new they fill with 100kgs of fuel,,, but if they ran the car to dry,, they'd only be able to get 90kg out....Bouncing Zabaglione Bros. said:
now why they do this , god knows , ballast ? well maybe ? coz it's low in the car instead of high ( apparently the renault tank is/was high in order to get more fuel pressue) ?
more info
http://www.barhondaf1.com/en/index.php?section=8&item=1144&type=1
mind you alonso's comments were funny "well ferrari are cheating as well because they've broken the 30 day rule"
