Epic Sues Apple and Google due to Fortnite getting pulled [2020-08-13, 2021-05-03]

[wco81]

And? Its not like oligopolies are perfectly acceptable market forms. You literally have two companies that basically own the entire smartphone market. The two companies are just pointing at the other as proof they don't have a monopoly. But oligopolies can be just as destructive to a market.

I don't anyone considers that apple and google's ecosystems has led to market in which conditions have created optimal competition.

Are you talking about the market for smart phones or the market for smart phone software?

Yeah, developers who want to sell games for smart phones pretty much have to go iOS or Android or both.

Or neither.

They don't have some inherent right to make money by selling smart phone games.

In any event, while Epic and a few others have made waves, there are thousands of developers/publishers on both iOS and Android selling games.

Most of them aren't making anywhere near the same kind of money as Epic. But they're not pulling stunts to cry about the fees being too high.

They knew going in what the price of entry was.

To generate even more analogies, it's like leasing office or retail space. You knew going in how much the rent was and you run your business, thrive at the location. But the you decide you don't want to pay as much in rent.

Meanwhile most of the other tenants are not complaining, even though they haven't made nearly the amount of money as the whiny one.

So Epic wants to involve lawyers and politicians to try to get it better business terms.

Only thing going for Epic in this dispute is that Apple is so rich, there's a good chance they get a sympathetic ear from politicians or more likely EU regulators.

 

[dobwal]

Are you talking about the market for smart phones or the market for smart phone software?

Yeah, developers who want to sell games for smart phones pretty much have to go iOS or Android or both.

Or neither.

They don't have some inherent right to make money by selling smart phone games.

In any event, while Epic and a few others have made waves, there are thousands of developers/publishers on both iOS and Android selling games.

Most of them aren't making anywhere near the same kind of money as Epic. But they're not pulling stunts to cry about the fees being too high.

They knew going in what the price of entry was.

To generate even more analogies, it's like leasing office or retail space. You knew going in how much the rent was and you run your business, thrive at the location. But the you decide you don't want to pay as much in rent.

Meanwhile most of the other tenants are not complaining, even though they haven't made nearly the amount of money as the whiny one.

So Epic wants to involve lawyers and politicians to try to get it better business terms.

Only thing going for Epic in this dispute is that Apple is so rich, there's a good chance they get a sympathetic ear from politicians or more likely EU regulators.

Antitrust laws’ sole purpose is to ensure fair competition in an open market economy.

The smartphone app economy is dominated by two closed systems where the platform owners can be downright anti-competitive.

Now that doesn’t mean I support Epic’s action that led to its removal from both stores. Having a pay option through the App Store as well as an end around while having complete control of pricing for both options is an outright and bold attempt to subvert Google’s or Apple’s participation in revenue generated on iOS and Android. I can see a method of going through a PC or console with different pricing to buy skins that can be used on smartphone. But Epic offering both options through the smartphone is relatively a slap in the face.

However, using Google App Store as a club to keep phone manufacturers from supporting alternative OSes or software launcher is anti-competitive. So is not allowing streaming services for games. It would be one thing to ask MS or Google for a piece of the revenue generated by their services on iOS. It’s another to restrict those services with excuse that you can’t inspect the software. These games aren’t running on iOS. Destiny on Stadia or xCloud is just pushing images to the device and device is simply outputting user inputs. Any failure in security would come from the remote app itself, which Apple can peruse for flaws.

These companies are readily abusing their market position to limit competition.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Anyone think Epic will try to bring suit against Google for unfair business practices of forcing terms of using their payment systems to be listed in their app store too?

Epic will stand a better chance targeting Google than Apple because under most regions monopolies regulation, Android is a monopoly where Apple's iOS is not. The definition is almost predicated on the relative size of the market and Android is massive Obviously it's not predicated on perceived value but the relative size off the market and iOS is small. IDC pegged Android at 86% and Apple at 13% in 2019.

Even then, unless any given market has changed behaviour and made it less competitive to exist in (and I don't think this is the case, the App Stores have always been what they are), you're chances for success are greatly diminished because Epic has demonstrably entered into that market knowing the situation.

As an iOS user I don't want Apple putting stupid barriers in front of service providers and frankly, 30% feels like highway robbery to me.

 

[Billy Idol]

I am honestly split on this issue.


30% seems super high. Developing a game for 3 years...well, the first year you worked for Apple/Google/Steam/Sony/MS etc.
that seems freaking high and in general, I wish that developers and publisher get more money with less risk, such that hopefully we get a better games portfolio.

On the other hand, the developers highly profit from these platforms: no platforms, no access to large audience, no sales, no money/much higher risk. If there wouldn’t be game console that host games and that allowed to make a ton of money...who knows what the gaming industry would be like today. Same goes today for mobile and mobile gaming. The platforms enable success.

Some additional thoughts:

(i) no one forces devs/publisher to specific platforms. They do it freely to get access to the respective audience. Audience love convenience. This is typical business: you have something I want, tell me your price...and I will decide if it is worth it. Apparently, most devs in the world decided that 30% is ok since many years.

(ii) Devs could get together and make their own platform with their own rules, say as an example, an indie friendly platform hosted by indie devs for indie devs (all small fish, but a swarm of hundreds appears like a giant swimmer .

(iii) thinking about this shows me that this whole exclusivity shenanigans is somewhat linked to the ecosystem of platform audience/access/money and risk...I have a better understanding now, why publisher/devs choose certain exclusive deals. That just seems to be a consequence of the whole setup.

(iv) why this magical number of 30%? I know that Epic store has less. It almost seems like that the major players got together and decided this rate to avoid competition...isn’t this like a cartel and strictly forbidden?

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Though without apps your platform is not going to survive either. Just ask Microsoft.

The problem is that by now there are affectively only two options if you want to develop a mobile app. iOS or Android. Because those two have so much power there isn't much need for them to be dev/consumer friendly. It's not like people have a realistic alternative.

No, nobody is putting a gun to their head but if you don't release your app on iOS or Android you basically have no market.

For much the same reason there is no way making your own platform is going to work. Again, even Microsoft couldn't break into the market (no helped by their own stupid decisions). How are a bunch of devs going to do it? An alternative app store might be possible but even that is likely to only be successful for a very small group devs that have a large enough user base that they can get people to go through the extra hassle. The majority of devs will be stuck with the default app store.

 

[BRiT]

I'm split in what outcome I'd like to see because of ramifications it would have on console platforms.

 

[wco81]

Antitrust laws’ sole purpose is to ensure fair competition in an open market economy.

The smartphone app economy is dominated by two closed systems where the platform owners can be downright anti-competitive.

Now that doesn’t mean I support Epic’s action that led to its removal from both stores. Having a pay option through the App Store as well as an end around while having complete control of pricing for both options is an outright and bold attempt to subvert Google’s or Apple’s participation in revenue generated on iOS and Android. I can see a method of going through a PC or console with different pricing to buy skins that can be used on smartphone. But Epic offering both options through the smartphone is relatively a slap in the face.

However, using Google App Store as a club to keep phone manufacturers from supporting alternative OSes or software launcher is anti-competitive. So is not allowing streaming services for games. It would be one thing to ask MS or Google for a piece of the revenue generated by their services on iOS. It’s another to restrict those services with excuse that you can’t inspect the software. These games aren’t running on iOS. Destiny on Stadia or xCloud is just pushing images to the device and device is simply outputting user inputs. Any failure in security would come from the remote app itself, which Apple can peruse for flaws.

These companies are readily abusing their market position to limit competition.

They're not limiting competition vs. each other. Apple is interested in winning vs. Samsung or Google or whoever makes best-selling phones.

Epic has all kinds of platforms, including the Switch, the consoles, PC, etc.

Epic's competitors are not Apple or Google. They are other games developers, all of which are paying 30%.

IF they want to argue that the high price of entry is a barrier to smaller players, reducing competition, they might have something. But there are dozens or hundreds of developers making good money selling freemium games with IAPs to juice up revenues while paying 30%. Many of them aren't as well-funded as Epic yet they pay the 30% so maybe that argument doesn't hold water, that it's too high a barrier for smaller companies and thus, you don't have the same variety and range of content that you otherwise would have.

They could have just offer side loading or maybe cut a deal with Amazon for lower fees. Then they'd be missing out on the iOS market and a good chunk of the Android market because many people are uninterested in installing other app. stores or side loading.

Anyways, it seems they're trying to stretch antitrust laws to force lower fees. But they've hired some very expensive legal talent, including a firm which had just litigated against Apple. They're hoping to be a nuisance as well as generate political pressure. Are Fortnite players going to tweet the #FreeFortnite and pressure their politicians? Maybe, though it's not clear what it gains them.

Epic is very rich but much much less rich than Apple or Google so the people should back Epic, help them make more money off you?

 

[AlphaWolf]

.

Epic is very rich but much much less rich than Apple or Google so the people should back Epic, help them make more money off you?

Except Epic was willing to share those savings with the consumer.

$7.99 vs. $9.99 through the app store.

 

[wco81]

Except Epic was willing to share those savings with the consumer.

$7.99 vs. $9.99 through the app store.

Sure a better deal but how long will it last?

Plus, it's highly doubtful even $7.99 is a good deal.

Then again, I'm not one for freemium or buying loot boxes or whatever the grift is with these games.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Sure a better deal but how long will it last?

Plus, it's highly doubtful even $7.99 is a good deal.

Then again, I'm not one for freemium or buying loot boxes or whatever the grift is with these games.

Is your argument is that Epic is worse than Apple so Epic getting gouged by apple is fine?

 

[wco81]

Worse?

No just bad. Just using the political pressure of a high-profile target to try to change the terms of the deal they agreed to.

Epic isn't suffering here. In fact someone noted that there weren't too many new downloads of their app. so they had a large enough installed base to sell their IAP. So now was a time to make this "protest" since their revenues wouldn't be too impacted.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Worse?

No just bad. Just using the political pressure of a high-profile target to try to change the terms of the deal they agreed to.

Epic isn't suffering here. In fact someone noted that there weren't too many new downloads of their app. so they had a large enough installed base to sell their IAP. So now was a time to make this "protest" since their revenues wouldn't be too impacted.

Huh? Their revenue isn't made via downloads, it's made via continuous in app purchases. The game being removed from the app store effectively removes continuing revenue from iOS devices. While a user may be able to keep the device on their phone, the apps are generally updated through the app store. This is especially important when new versions of iOS are released that can potentially break functionality in installed apps (hence in app updates aren't a reliable way to update your app in iOS). That then means the only way to upgrade or restore functionality is through an update through...the app store.

And the only way to encourage users to spend more money is via updates to the game and game's content which in most cases will require...the app store.

Regards,
SB

 

[wco81]

I didn't download the app. I do have it on my Switch but never played it more than a couple of times.

But that's what The Vergecast surmised, that even if it's pulled from the App. Store, it's probably on tens or hundreds of millions of iOS devices.

They won't be able to install on devices of iOS accountholders who never downloaded it though.

For instance, if I buy a new iPhone this fall, I wouldn't be able to download to it unless the situation changes. But people who already have it on their iPhones can continue to play and make IAPs.

 

[MfA]

I don't think additional stores is really what you want. I remember my HTC one came with three... totally useless.

If a store is useless you don't use it, problem solved.

 

[^M^]

What's Fortnite?

A dance game I believe.

In alternate universe where apple lost would that have implications for sony for example. Could it be this could lead to forcing consoles to becoming more open? This is super interesting case to follow and think about what could be.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1294014566347747334

I don't see any functional difference between the app store and the store that comes with every console.
Heck even for physical distribution your game needs to be certified and you pay a licence fee.

 

[eastmen]

A dance game I believe.



I don't see any functional difference between the app store and the store that comes with every console.
Heck even for physical distribution your game needs to be certified and you pay a licence fee.

one difference for now is that you can still go to a store and buy the game at a different price.

 

[Ike Turner]

Tim Motherfucking Sweeney ya'll!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1295180014787403777

Oh and Tim's lying ass made sure to crop the full screenshot which shows Netflix as the first result after the TikTok ad...

 

[Arnold Beckenbauer]

Does anyone here remember Infinity Blade series?
https://www.loopinsight.com/2011/06...ame-earns-more-than-10-million-in-six-months/

Epic Games and Chair Entertainment on Tuesday announced that earnings from the iOS game Infinity Blade have exceeded $10 million in its first six months of release
...
Epic vice president and co-founder Mark Rein said, “Infinity Blade’s success proves that triple-A gaming experiences can be hugely successful on iOS and that there is a valuable, pent up demand for premium content like this.”

https://www.vg247.com/2011/07/07/infinity-blade-passes-11-million-in-sales/ $11 Mio one month later

https://www.shacknews.com/article/7...eries-generates-30-million-of-earnings-in-one
Infinity Blade series generates $30 million of earnings in one year

Epic Games were so happy with Apple's appstore and I'm pretty sure, that the appstore has helped Epic Games.

Muahaha: https://www.macrumors.com/2020/08/17/apple-terminate-epic-developer-accounts-august-28/

 

[AzBat]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1295430127455596544

There's a link to temporary restraining order.

Tommy McClain

 

[iroboto]

oooph..
that's going to backfire on Epic.

Many moms are gonna be angry when their kids can't play.