pax said:
Seriously take the actual costs of production of all goods and services whether made here or abroad and you'll see very little correlation between production costs and retail pricing. The range of profitability can run from slim to massive. Market is relatively free to dictate the price except where monopolies exist.
The evidence is there and it states that the economy itself does the best job at setting the value of wages. Minimum wage does nothing to benefit more than 75% of workers hense the reason why minimum wage doesn't really affect production costs. The price of labor is already higher. What you are suggesting is raising the minimum to an even higher level. If workers are already being payed more on average then what you suggested your minium wage proposition will won't do anything to help anyone.
I think by simply applying logic Pax you can come to the conclusion there is a difference in production value. If not why on earth move your company to another country? The companies move so they can pull in higher profits. They have every right to do this. The mere fact they aren't highering native workers is counter beneficial to the cause of native labor. Foreign labor isn't contributing back to our economy in the same level native labor does. Why they higher foreign labor? Lowering of production cost.
What you call positive evidence of your position isn't evidence for it at all. Companies will move factories elsewhere to compensate for higher wages they have to pay elsewhere for menial labor. This is one of the many reasons why we the consumer do not see dramatically rising prices. As for minimum wage its clear its valueless.
Of course Id like to see the illegal immigration fixed by being made legal. Making it easier to come here takes away the incentive to use illegal means. This would free up enormous resources for the fight on terrorism now used to trace down simple laborers who dont qualify legally under our huge paper barrier.
You have to realize western society is extremely wealthy and would have a much easier time to integrate new immigrants than we did in the past when millions immigrated every year.
We have every right to restrict immigration if we so please. I agree with restricting the number of poorly educated immigrants into this country. Merely allowing whomever wants to cross your borders is absolutely ludicrous iin practive and in concept.
Anyone who works contributes to the system.
Not at the same levels Pax. Can you not see this? illegals don't pay taxes amongst other things.
Tho legal immigrants who pay income taxes probly do a bit more. Its a lot harder to come here illegally than legally. People use the illegal route when denied the legal one...
Pax, why on earth are you trying to draw a comparison between ILLEGAL immigrants and LEGAL immigrants? They are refused the right to come here for numerous reasons. They should be kept out. They have no right to be here.
You argument for competitiveness isnt always true. Market isnt as simple as lowest price get the sale. You have branding and distribution and technology I mean whether it costs 2$ to make a pair of shoes or 8$ does it matter when they sell for 150$? Moving to China is as much as profit margin improvement if not more so than being competitive.
Actually its your counter argument that isn't true. You seems to opperating on the reasoning that since business could afford at this time to pay higher wages they should pay higher wages to menail laborers. If they choose not to that is there choice. The labor is a dime a dozen. Its own inflation has devalued it.
Nike sells its shoes not because they are slighlty cheaper than reebok. Its utterly irrelevant in that market. They sell because of mind share plain and simple.
How on earth could you possibley say this? Nike sales a considerable more shoes then Reebok. They also make a greater profit on each shoe if what you are saying is true. So yes it does make a difference to them.
Minimum wage reform isnt about putting small biz out of biz. Its about putting food on the table thru wages and not gov subsidies.
Actually its about political support. Most workers (nonteenage labor) do not work at minimum wage. So no this has nothing to do with putting food on the table.
The fact is forcing small business to pay ridiculously high minium wage will hurt it. this is undeniable.
If a worker is needed he can be paid the extremely modest wage of 12$ an hour.
Pax if most people are being payed at this level then the minimum wage will be useless. It is a companies right to pay their employes as they please. The mere fact that menial labor is so inflated is the direct cause of devalued labor. I do not support raising their salaries beyond the market price of their labor.
Im very familiar with small biz in my town thru the local COC and the fact I also had a small biz in the past. I never knew any small biz so poor it couldnt afford such wages.
They may be able to "afford" doing this in the sense they have the money. This will fluctuate. They have the right to pay their employes what they will. The employes are the ones who have decided to accept the payments.
OPf course most dont make minimum wages and thru tips and othre income actualy make the living wage. minimum wge reforfm would ony affect a very small percentage of adults who actually make that little largely due to abusive employers...
It is obvious that minimum wage affects a very small populace of adults. This is why it is used more to garner political support then actualyl benefitting society. Workers have the ability to quit and find other jobs if they are having problems. All raising minimum wage will do is incourage even more business to put factories over seas.
Truth be told Id have a hard finding many in my town making under 10$ an hour. But there are some in some employers who gouge every red cent they can and the law would apply to them.
Why shouldn't they? its their business and they are dealing with inflated devalued labor that will only decrease in value over time as it is replaced by technology and requirements for higher end jobs.
Its a mrginal issue but probably affects the population in the single digits % range. minimum wage laws are extremely modest to begin with.
I think this is an admittion of the valuelessness of the laws themselves do to the nature of extinuating circumstances in which they apply.
To argue against such a small intervention is pretty nuts.
WHy is that? You don't feel business have the right to pay their workers what they feel is a porper salary worth their position? I think it is pretty crazy to demand businesses pay what you want them to pay you when you, in the form of labor, are a dime a dozen.
But the arguementation is based on the ideology that the market is free and not manipulated. Which it largely is.
Much like minimum wage is. It is more the legal representation of ideology that has little if any at all influence on society.
No I dont see foreign labor here lowering wages. I see foreign labor overseas lowering wages thru unemployment.
Really? You can't see paying foreign labor lower wages is one of the direct reasons for moving companies overseas?
Moving to Mexico had little effect on mindshare for the cies who moved there. Its just gouging of an opportunity to make more $ than usual.
again why is it wrong for companies to make more money?
People dont buy into Kia made in SK because its 1000$ cheaper than the well known japanese brand made locally.Its mindshare. Kia is addressing a lower market share not addressed by the jap brands but largely not competiting with the jap brand. And they cant really as jap quality and rep is way better...
Yet companies who move their companies overseas make larger profits. This is a fact.
The biggest problem menial laborers face is their lack of education. Allowing poorly educated illegal immigrants will only lead to more and more problems.
