DTS-HD/Full HDMI 1.3 compliance - May not make PS3 launch. RSX is on audio duty.

[Mmmkay]

This was being touched upon in the "More RSX tidbits" thread, but that is currently locked so I couldn't follow it up there. Also, this seems to be weeks old but somewhat overlooked, as I can't find any discussion on it.

This is a curious story which first cropped up on AVS, where a poster who visited CEATEC made a thread on various info he had picked up:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=731434

about PS3 and HDMI 1.3

The PS3 will have parts of HDMI 1.3 inside, only some parts of the hdmi 1.3 chipset they need to use. that is why sony ps3 is possible to release the ps3 in november. also from the get go it wont be possible to use HDMI 1.3 direct, but this will be fixed later on by firmware update. it will use hdmi 1.2A. logical since there aint a tv out yet that uses 1.3 hmdi

PS3 is in production.

This piqued my interest because it might go some way to explain how Sony can commit to the volume of units they are claiming by the end of 2006, when the tech is only just mass producing. However, a separate story by the Japanese press goes a little further to elaborate on what the AVS poster may have been told:

http://www.phileweb.com/news/d-av/200610/03/16774.html

なお、先日PS3にドルビーTrueHDデコーダーが搭載されることが明らかにされた（関連ニュース）が、ほかの音声フォーマットも含め、より詳しい話を聞くことができた。

ドルビーTrueHDなどの音声フォーマットは、すべてRSXというチップでソフトウェアデコードされる。このため、音声フォーマットのデコード機能は、ファームウェアのアップグレードなどで追加することが可能。

デコードした信号は、最大7.1chのリニアPCM音声でHDMIから出力することができる。ドルビーデジタルプラスについては、「現在デコード用のプログラムを開発しており、何とか発売には間に合わせることができそう」（同社説明員）とのことで、発売時にデコード機能が装備される可能性が出てきた。また DTS-HDについては、「開発を進めているが、発売には間に合わなそうなので、将来的にファームウェアのアップグレードで対応することを検討している。ただし、RSXでは帯域がギリギリなので、対応できない可能性もある」という。

Now, I'm no translator, but my machine interpretation skills are legendary... (A real translation would be wonderful, if someone could assist?) The article seems to confirm that Dolby TrueHD is indeed supported, linking to a prior article (that states TrueHD isn't presently availabe as a bitstream passthrough output though i.e. Not full HDMI 1.3 support from PS3), and goes on to say that all audio is decoded by RSX. It also confirms that 7.1 LPCM output over HDMI is supported. It then goes on to talk about DTS-HD, where they mention that development is being made on providing decoding support, but it won't make it in time for launch and instead may be provided via a firmware update. The last bit I'm a bit hazy on, it suggests that RSX is the potential problem in this actually happening for DTS-HD.

[Disclaaaaaimer] A full translation would be a great help though, as you never can tell how trustworthy these infernal machines are! Still, RSX is clearly mentioned (newsworthy no?) and the story isn't single sourced.

[edit]

The second paragraph says since all audio formats such as Dolby TrueHD are software-decoded by RSX new decoding functions can be added by firmware updates later.

The last paragraph is

decoded data = 7.1ch LPCM output through HDMI
Dolby Digital Plus = working on the decoder software now, probably ready at the release
DTS-HD = working on the decoder software now, but not ready at the release, or may not be possible because of the bandwidth limitation in RSX

Thanks, one.

 

[mrboo]

I call the whole thing bullshit IMO, HDMI 1.3 is backwards compatable with any other version of HDMI, you can use a HDMI 1.3 signal on equipment that only supprts version 1.1. there's no need to use a 1.2a version.

Q: Is HDMI 1.3 backward compatible with prior releases of the HDMI spec and with DVI?
Yes, HDMI is fully backward compatible with all prior releases of the HDMI spec, as well as DVI compliant devices.

http://www.hdmi.org/about/faq.asp#q4_8

As i said why would Sony use it as a 1.2a when its cheaper and easier to just release PS3 with 1.3 enabled? The proposed firmware update will cost money, and IMO its an unnecessary cost.

 

[Guden Oden]

This is exactly why I sometimes hate the internet.

Add confused machine translation, vague murmurs of sensationalistic nature, PS3 and its oft-delayed nature, and you get a result that really shouldn't be posted until there is more information, or better yet, confirmation of some kind. Yet people don't DO that, because they want to be first (and get noticed, I guess)...

Is there ANYTHING concrete in your post, or is it just more "sony's teh DOOMZED!" stuff we've seen about twelve thousand times before over the last couple years?

 

[one]

The second paragraph says since all audio formats such as Dolby TrueHD are software-decoded by RSX new decoding functions can be added by firmware updates later.

The last paragraph is

decoded data = 7.1ch LPCM output through HDMI
Dolby Digital Plus = working on the decoder software now, probably ready at the release
DTS-HD = working on the decoder software now, but not ready at the release, or may not be possible because of the bandwidth limitation in RSX

 

[mrboo]

The second paragraph says since all audio formats such as Dolby TrueHD are software-decoded by RSX new decoding functions can be added by firmware updates later.

The last paragraph is

decoded data = 7.1ch LPCM output through HDMI
Dolby Digital Plus = working on the decoder software now, probably ready at the release
DTS-HD = working on the decoder software now, but not ready at the release, or may not be possible because of the bandwidth limitation in RSX

How can they be decode'd by RSX when loads of developers ( mainly the R:FOM dev's ) are all doing audio on Cell? Even the Burnout 5 developers said that Cell allows them to have more audio channels and higher sound quality then last gen, would'nt they be saying RSX and not Cell if RSX did handle the audio?

 

[StefanS]

Lol, one was faster:

Here's the complete translation:

A few days ago it was announced that Dolby True HD is on board in the PS3 (see related News), other sound formats are also included, but we could hear more detailed reports. The Sound formats of Dolby TrueHd etc. are entirely software decoded on the chip called RSX. Therefore it’s possible to add decoder functions for audio formats via firmware upgrade. The decoded signal can be outputted in linear PCM sound of maximum 7.1ch via HDMI. Concerning Dolby Digital Plus, from the quote “We have developed programs for current and we seem to be able to have them somehow ready for the sale (launch)†(spokesman from the same firm) the possibility has emerged that the decoding function will be equipped [in the console] on launch day. Moreover, concerning DTS-HD, it is said: “The development still continues, but because it looks as if we can’t have it ready on sale( launch), we’re considering to enable (deal with) it by a firmware upgrade in the future. However, because the bandwith in RSX is limited, there’s also the possibility that we can’t enabled it.â€

 

[mrboo]

are entirely software decoded on the chip called RSX

Ah....so Film audio is decoded by RSX, game audio will be encoded by Cell then.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

What's DTS-HD and why's it neeed when 7.1 uncompressed is available? And any guesses as to how the BW is a limiting factor? 32 bit uncompressed audio at 128 kHz sampling (all overkill) is a whopping 512 KB a second. For 8 channels that's be 4 MB a second audio throughput. I can't see where BW can ever be a limit for audio on a modern processor.

 

[one]

What's DTS-HD and why's it neeed when 7.1 uncompressed is available? And any guesses as to how the BW is a limiting factor? 32 bit uncompressed audio at 128 kHz sampling (all overkill) is a whopping 512 KB a second. For 8 channels that's be 4 MB a second audio throughput. I can't see where BW can ever be a limit for audio on a modern processor.

It's an optional codec for Blu-ray.
http://www.dts.com/dts-hd/dts-on-bluray-and-hddvd.php

 

[Guden Oden]

Um, 24Mbit just for audio (that master audio thing) is just completely crazy, is that 7.1 channels sampled at a frequency intended for cybernetic bats? I can't see how that could possibly be possible, unless it IS uncompressed 7.1 (8-channel 96kHz 32-bit samples works out at ~3MB/s).

 

[London Geezer]

Um, 24Mbit just for audio (that master audio thing) is just completely crazy, is that 7.1 channels sampled at a frequency intended for cybernetic bats? I can't see how that could possibly be possible, unless it IS uncompressed 7.1 (8-channel 96kHz 32-bit samples works out at ~3MB/s).

Yeah 24Mb just for audio is crazy... I'd love to hear that through a sound system that would actually resolve all the detail, which would be VERY expensive of course. To be honest normal DTS already sounds very very good, not sure if i'd bother with anything better, and i have a pretty old surround sound system which won't be replaced until it breaks down, and i don't think it will as it's an old-ish Sony, when they were still doing things that last a LONG time....

 

[ban25]

How can they be decode'd by RSX when loads of developers ( mainly the R:FOM dev's ) are all doing audio on Cell? Even the Burnout 5 developers said that Cell allows them to have more audio channels and higher sound quality then last gen, would'nt they be saying RSX and not Cell if RSX did handle the audio?

Sounds like PureVideo is, in fact, in RSX, as I suspected.

 

[ban25]

What's DTS-HD and why's it neeed when 7.1 uncompressed is available? And any guesses as to how the BW is a limiting factor? 32 bit uncompressed audio at 128 kHz sampling (all overkill) is a whopping 512 KB a second. For 8 channels that's be 4 MB a second audio throughput. I can't see where BW can ever be a limit for audio on a modern processor.

Since audio on BD can be encoded in this codec, the PS3 needs to be able to decode it into LPCM to pass over HDMI to your receiver, unless you have an HDMI 1.3 receiver that can do the decoding itself.

Now, I assume (and hope) it actually decodes 7.1 to LPCM instead of just extracting the core 5.1 DD audio stream and sending over the toslink.

 

[bkilian]

How can they be decode'd by RSX when loads of developers ( mainly the R:FOM dev's ) are all doing audio on Cell? Even the Burnout 5 developers said that Cell allows them to have more audio channels and higher sound quality then last gen, would'nt they be saying RSX and not Cell if RSX did handle the audio?

Probably for the same reason that the XBox's H.264 codec offloads a bunch of work onto Xenos. The Cell will be busy decoding video. Decoding the new codecs in software is no simple task, no matter how beefy your CPU.

 

[Guden Oden]

Nah. These audio codecs are a doddle for cell, the data rates are so exceedingly low it would only require a fraction of one SPE to en/decode the streams. 24Mbit/s (3MB/s) is almost nothing for a chip whose aggregate internal bandwidth measures literally in half a terabyte/sec or so.

 

[ban25]

Nah. These audio codecs are a doddle for cell, the data rates are so exceedingly low it would only require a fraction of one SPE to en/decode the streams. 24Mbit/s (3MB/s) is almost nothing for a chip whose aggregate internal bandwidth measures literally in half a terabyte/sec or so.

In order to do that, someone has to port those codecs to Cell, and development time is a finite resource.

 

[babcat]

First, the RSX was going to do sound, then it was going to be handled by the CELL, and now it's back to the RSX. I think I have whiplash from all this.

 

[A176]

... in the end though, I completely trust nvidia to do wonders here. Soundstorm was an amazing product, from an end-user point of view atleast.

 

[DeanA]

Having RSX do any kind of work for TrueHD makes no sense at all from a system architecture point of view. Audio decode (or encode, in the case of runtime DD5.1 encoding) should be performed by an SPU, if only because it can then run completely in parallel to the main body of an application. RSX is - for pretty much most of the frame - under complete application control.. it's not like you just do a CreateThread() on it, and have it swap between game & OS control. Infact, I doubt that GPU's are particularly effective at running complex sound decoder/encoder algorithms anyway, given the nature of that kind of code. It's definately easier to port existing codecs to CELL (whether PPU or SPU) than to a GPU.

And as Guden quite rightly points out, this kind of stuff is a doddle for CELL to deal with.

RSX != audio processor.

Dean

 

[Guden Oden]

In order to do that, someone has to port those codecs to Cell, and development time is a finite resource.

You'd have to port the codecs regardless, as they'll not get decoded by magic wether cell does the job or not.